Marathon Man,
You seem to be a fairly together person, but perhaps you should let go of the problems you experienced as a young man. It seems that you spend a fair amount of your time recreating the pain you felt at that time rather than healing it and moving on.

Well, enough of my coaching... I hope you have a wonderful day! Don't let others determine your destiny!

I really don't think so.

------------------
Vasant

This scheme is not too different from others like buying money orders and deposit it back to the bank. I don't see why people have no problem accepting the MO scheme but not this one.

How about this? I saw a lot of Ebay auction items which came from people buying stuffs online (like officemax.com) and getting a rebate. How is the moral issue for those people??? In short, a lot of people are gaming the system. This particular scheme is definitely not the worst one I've ever seen.

Yes, debua1k, I am well 'over it' but it is still something that is out there even in the real world all these years later. People at work can be finks to each othere also.

ANYWAY (Well, back to earth, at least)...

FT Wannabe brings up another good point in asking how this compairs to rebates... I think it was mentioned earlier on in the thread but if something is unethical, what should we do? Should we turn ourselves in or something?

Say I did the things in this thread unintentionally... Now, Should I call Home Depot or whatever rebate company, or store and tell them and the bank that I just earned miles? Should they stop?

This is the main question.
I guess it should be left as this:

people should do what they think they must in cases like these. I am beating a dead horse here so I think I am done now. Thanks./
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

It looks like you think it is OK to be unethical because it is for something small and therefore unimportant. It seems to me that if you are willing to be unethical for something small for which you have little to gain, you won't hesitate to be unethical for something large where you have lots to gain. Your criticism of those with ethics displaying only black and white thinking is 180 degrees off the mark, ethics is the process of making decisions in a world with infinite shades of grey. You are the one who seems to require simplification to black and white by justifying that you are justifying a loophole without a law against it, so it is ok, or "white". Since the very basis of ethics is that it requires self restraint, and you appear to have none, all of our posts are a waste of time for you. The good thing, however, is that rational people have taken the time to step back and give the issue some thought and provided some good intellectual discussion. We can only hope that there are only a few of your type out there and that most of the damage you cause will be only to yourself.

Whoa. Can some please tell me if I have a reading comprehension problem here.

Admittedly, Marathon Man's posts, are, well, marathon in length and I may have missed something. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

What I think he is saying is:

1) If the stores policy if to give back cash for small items, or partial items, returned bu purchased on credit.

2) -and- you participate in this transaction as part of your day-to-day activities. i.e. the transaction wasn't entered into only to earn miles.

then there is no problem. ???

I say "let your conscience be your guide". If you have to rationalize what your doing then maybe its not a good idea.

My question, after thinking about some of this is, has anyone actually enrolled in a college on a credit card, just for the purpose of dropping-out before classes start, to get a cash refund and the miles? Which college was this that offered 100% refunds in cash?

In California, here are my thoughts for public colleges. All might give cash refunds for at least part of your fees, if only because they process so many partial refunds, many months after the initial charge. It's probably just easier administratively to do that.:

University of California: Highest costs, but forget it. A very competitive university system to get in and stay in. I couldn't imagine a student doing this to get miles and then later thrown-out for making no progress toward a degree in a timely manner.

California State University: Medium costs (where I graduated from). Some campuses are harder to get into than others, but more relaxed requirements than the Univerisity of California. More tolerant to students who drop-out of classes and keep returning, but in my CSUN catalog, it does explain they can put you on probation, or eventually disqualify you, if you keep doing this. One could also enroll via university extension, but Extended Learning departments are run more like a business, so they might be more likely to submit refunds back through the credit card company.

California Community Colleges: Only $11 a unit, plus maybe $30 in student fees. These fees are sure to go up next semester, because of California's budget woes. But even if you registered for 20 units each semester (a huge load of courses) and dropped-out before the term started, the most this transaction would come to is about $250. Hardly worth it, even if you could get all your money back in cash. And it is true signing up for classes you don't plan take, may prevent another needy student from getting in, since you've taken up a slot. Even if you did enroll in the least popular courses, still there are easier ways to earn miles, than waste a college's resources doing this nonsense.

[This message has been edited by burgerwars (edited 02-05-2003).]

Well Marathon Man, you would have really loved the old days of Home Depot $100 Gift Cards, purchased with whatever rewards credit (not debit) card you choose which gave cash back after any small purchase, instead of the residual value remaining on the card. I read about this on Flyertalk, and don't recall too many being upset about the ethics (or maybe I missed it). This process had the same effect of earning miles at full or double credit, giving cash back, and didn't require the whole convoluted return scheme, and in effect caused the same loss on the card transaction fee for the merchant. Of course Home Depot stopped this, though it's effect would have still given them a benefit of a small sale that may have gone elsewhere and a more loyal customer.

Does anyone see the end result to the merchant as having a similar ethical concern? With debit cards aren't there much lower merchant fees anyways... so less loss in this method to merchant and less gain to buyer(returner).

Just reading Home Depot and cash back brought this to mind. I don't have a mileage earning debit card and won't be looking for one myself.


[This message has been edited by ddavis (edited 02-05-2003).]

To quote Marathon Man:

"people should do what they think they must in cases like these. I am beating a dead horse here so I think I am done now."

I am glad you've stopped being "unglued" - I was beginning to feel like I was around a rendering factory while reading your posts.

I managed to convince a buddy that he should return this hideous shirt lest the fashion police come arrest him! Really people, it was that bad. But I can understand the draw: it was originally $135 and is now 80% off (-20% with coupon). Well he used his debit card (MAC/Star) at Macy's to buy the shirt.

When the clerk rang up the transaction, she asked him for his card. Now I thought that Macy's like Target, Home Depot etc kept your card number in their system so that when you return something, it automatically goes back to that account--no card needed. Well it turns out that he used his MAC/Star only card! No Visa or MC logo! Wel the clerk didn't know what to do about this! The clerk called the area manager, the AM called the floor manager and they all called upstairs only to find out: "Give him cash!"

It turns out that Macy's will let you use debit or credit cards but unlike HD they don't give cash for a debit card return, they credit it to the Visa/MC portion of the card! Well they didn't know how to do that on a card without the Visa/MC logo!!! Of course at least 2 of the store employees grilled him as to why he doesn't have a full-fleged debit card...

error

[This message has been edited by RS (edited 02-06-2003).]

Huh, been there, done that.
I’ll throw in my monkey, too, here’s the story:
A few years ago I’ve bought an expensive piece of jewelry ($5K) intended as a gift and, naturally, I charged it to mine DL Amex.
It turned out that I would never use this gift, but when I came to return the item four months later, my DL was long gone – canceled after 1 free year. I did not even remember which card I used, so when clerk tried to auto-refund it – transaction got rejected. For the moment we stayed stunned – clerk did not know how to react, and I realized that I hit THE loophole. The clerk was still mumbling something about not being able to refund cash, when I was handling him my Business Amex (no miles, no MR) and telling him that my account # been changed. Boy, did it make him happy. Later I transferred in my -$5K balance (free for Bus Amex).

I guess I did step on the Dark Side when I repeated this tran last summer – but my 9-month old DL Amex was offering double miles, and I could not resist.

So, like our messenger running back to Athens, I do believe there’s something between black and white. Will I do it again ?...

What the crux of all of this arguing seems to be missing is that people are talking about two different beasts here - a miles-earning credit card, and a miles-earning debit card. With a credit card, your returns should always be put back on the card - that is part of the merchant agreement banks set forth to places who wish to accept credit cards.

With a debit card, though, it's a different manner. A lot of places cannot process a debit return - their systems just won't allow it. And since a debit card transaction is technically equivalent to cash, people will tend to get upset when they are told that to process their debit card refund by credit card, it will take the standard credit time - usually 5-7 business days - for the refund to post.

Hence, at places such as Home Depot or Wal-Mart, you will generally get a cash refund on a debit transaction, because in their eyes, you paid cash in the first place.

This is not to say that I condone the massive purchasing of items via debit, only to get a cash refund and miles. There is still a merchant fee to be lost by the retailer (albeit a smaller one using a debit system). And ultimately, it will get paid for in higher prices.

Mike

Yes Nako, (and others asking); one of the horses is dead but there's always more to agrevate...

The debit card is like cash in these purchasing instances and thus, the store has already been (instantly) paid. So when you do a return, if they have to put it somewhere, they offer to put cash in your hands. It is what you gave them, after all. Tell the sales clerk you eraned FF miles for it and they will look at you as if you have three heads because many there have no care for miles anyway, I find.

If there is an issue, it would be the policies of banks and stores. Even if we all decided to be ethically perfect 101% in everything we ever do in our entire lives and we all WANTED these miles to be put back on the card when returning our items, I do not know how we or the banks would let this occur. The only solution (to appease the self-righteous ones) would be if someone in here were to tell banks with miles-earning debit cards to no longer offer miles on those debit cards. I am not going to be this person as I happen to enjoy my bank card's added benefit. Does anyone else? Good.

Now, I may not purposely go lugging hundreds of tiles back into HD (although this might add to some of my weight training also necessary when you train for marathons to and from Athens or in other cities) but such return-actions could in fact work and I merely pointed this out in here. I had to almost 'fight' about my findings in here though, and THAT is the only reason why much of this thread about it all still goes on today.

Now, with that one more or less solved, consider this (to further agrevate some):

As for the college-enroll thing (miles or no), I find that some ski areas give you the seasons pass for up to 1/3 less if you are a student. Some people I've known have enrolled in school to 'be a student' at the time they purchase this seasonal ski pass (which can be a savings of over $700) and then they unenroll days later. Technically speaking (all ethics aside) they WERE in fact students and that is what the ski area knows as well. You may get less miles when ordering your pass but who cares in this case? Go tell most post college grads who pull in $19k/year (like Joe Millionare supposedly does) to NOT consider this kind of thing...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gifMM is having fun but is also prepared to run from the police! (ha ha -- only kidding.)

Honestly I have never returned anything purchased with a credit card and been given cash. I agree that buying something just to return it and screw the merchant out of the miles is unethical. Another reason to be weary of running up "phony" tabs on credit cards just for miles is that often suspicious activity on credit cards is monitored and can affect credit ratings or arouse suspicions of much more illicit activity then just trying to fatten a frequent flyer account.

I found the same loophole. My wife bought something at JCPenney's and later decided that she did not like it anymore. I bought it with my CO Visa. At return time, the CO Visa had been cancelled and I was thankfully able to return it on a different Visa. I could have cared less about miles but was happy to be able to return it.

I guess it would be possible to buy things and return them on different cards to make miles, but I would not do it. Aside from ethical issues, I hate to return things and find it embarrasing. Not only that, but if it were to be done enough to get any real value out of it, the credit card company and/or merchant would probably pick up on it and take some action, possibly affecting your credit rating. It may even be that the airline could get involved and close a frequent flyer account if pressured by the credit card company. I don't know if it would get to this, but I do know that the airlines are the "gods" of their programs, and have carefully reserved the right to do virtually as they wish with their programs and the accounts.

My advice is to stick to earning miles the ethical way. If you find a loophole like the pudding guy who realized that the miles were worth more than the pudding, that is fine, but buying things to intentionally return to get miles is not something that the merchant, credit card, or airline would tolerate if they were alerted of this activity.

I heard about that one. My question is this, ethics aside, was it really worth it? You buy a gift cert for $100, that gives you 100 (or 200 if doubled with DL Amex), that are worth somewhere between $1 and $4 depending on the number of miles and who you ask. Then you have to stand in line again to buy something small to get most of your money back. So even at the double miles, you would have to buy 125 gift certificates, and then stand in line 125 times to buy 125 small items (I hope you can use the items) just to get a 25k domestic award. I would rather buy the miles from the airline for $625 than stand in line like that - I have better things to do with my time.

Well I never did it nearly 125 times, but you could buy an unlimited number of gift cards in a single purchase. I think people liked this as much for the free credit card cash advance feature as for the mileage bonus, not necessarily looking for a free ticket.
Since it is no longer available, I was just comparing the ethical questions which I don't recall being brought up regarding the old offer. The 'buy/return' idea seems quite unethical and yet costs the merchant less and yields less value with the credit vs. debit cards.

Good thing it wasn't Lowe's!!! My SO had to return something she bought 3 weeks ago. A week later, her credit union issued a whole new set of cards to every member. So when the Lowe's clerk saw that the last 4 digits on the new/replacement card didn't match, she wouldn't do the transaction. The only thing she would do was issue a store credit!

being a student, I feel like I have to add my $0.02:

yes, although community college courses are cheap enough, money is still money. any sort of unnecessary financial burden won't help

but what really bothers us is what channa said, taking up a potential slot. every semester when it comes to registration time, it is already frustrating enough fighting to get into class with other students. I beg you to PLEASE don't register for fun and drop later, and screw us out of our classes. What may be only 100 miles for you, could mean an extra year of school for us (yes, if we don't make it into that a certain required class, and that class is only offered one semester a year, we have to wait for a whole bloody year). many of us have our schedule carefully planned. any disruption can mean a massive cluster**** for us


PLEASE, if you can stomech cheating other merchants, i don't approve but i'm not here to lecture you on morality, but I BEG you don't **** with the schools. It is bad enough that we have enough to worry about as students

Thank you

[This message has been edited by ben1979 (edited 02-12-2003).]

edit: double post

[This message has been edited by ben1979 (edited 02-12-2003).]

No, everybody does not cheat, silkworm, as you can see from this post. To take advantage of merchants like that will force them to no longer accept returns. Free lunches don't last and besides, it's wrong. Yet to some Gen Yers (and I'm dating myself) right and wrong don't matter as long as one can take advantage of another. It all evens out in the end----I'm a firm believer in that so if you cheat someone or something, it will come back to haunt you.

-you can register for college and not necessarily pick courses til later, so it will not affect those who need those classe.

[[Besides, when we were in school, you could find ways around those clas picking systems too and always get in if you really wanted to. (hee hee hee)]]

-the whole system of returns for money in many stores across this great nation of ours is kinda cool but I dunno if miles gigs are gonna bring it down if they do not fit the mold. However, if you really want to see some differences, try Holland. Go there, get something like a pair of ESpirit jeans for your girlfriend or wife and then, when they do not fit, try to return them. try to return ANYTHING!

Can't be done.

Miles or no, we have it good but that country has sooooooo few less bank and fraud and monetary problems! I dunno, just an observation...

-As for KARMA and the idea that if you do something, it will come back to you, I guess THAT is the one that makes me start to think if I should ever try to return something again--even when it does not involve some foudn miles gig like mine.

------------------
If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

Nope. Well not in my 25 years as a credit card merchant here with every kind of card anyway. One cancels the other exactly. Zero fee. Which is WHY the stores process a card credit if you paid by card. A small transaction under $100 they may not bother on this, but anyone here prepared to go to all that messing around to gain 100 or whatever miles needs counselling. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

The scammer who started this thread alluded that HE knew stores that always gave him checks as refund. Then conveniently never let on as to WHO did so.

Reason? I do not think they exist.

A merchant selling a $3000 lap top or plasma screen TV etc and giving you a check refund has lost $90 real money right there on a typical 3% (generally somewhat higher on Amex and Diners) merchant fee. No-one is THAT stupid. "No credit card with you sir .. well - you WILL need to have this processed back on the same card or we cannot assist". Try it more than once and their security guys will likely be talking to you.

And THAT is the kind of transaction you'd need to do to even make a scammer think it was worth doing. Even if I got 3000 or 5000 points for twice schlepping around a plasma TV to and from a store ...... fergeddaboutit.

You folks can get 20,000 BA points right now (and those are REALLY worth something unlike US schemes) by you and a spouse test driving a Jag. And can sleep at night over it as THAT is 100% legitimate.

------------------
~ Glen ~

Come and visit the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 02-13-2003).]

Either then you are very lucky or we are very unlucky, we certainly pay a fee in both directions in the very few instances we process a credit. Seems like we need to revisit that with our bank.

I think you may be unlucky. When I was a Visa/MC merchant, things worked just as ozstamps describes - the discount rate worked the opposite way for returns such that the merchant effectively got the discount rate refunded to them at the same time the customer got the original credit refunded to their account.

In my case, I had a $0.20/transaction processing fee in addition to the discount rate. This amount was charged for every transaction, whether it be a purchase, credit, authorization only, or even a declined authorization. So, in my case, any purchased followed by a refund would cost me $0.40, but no discount fees (I would imagine that with the plummeting telecom costs, many of these per-transaction fees have been reduced or eliminated compared to 10 years ago).

Yep, along with SteveM example, if I process sales this week of $11,000 and get charged 3% I am debited $330.

If $1,000 of that $11,000 comes back next week for credit and return, I process $11,000 of my new sales and a credit $1,000, so bank charges me 3% of only $10,000 or $300.

So yes I did pay $30 in Scene #1 but have it offset against banking in Scene #2. Zero sum game in the wash-up.

They cannot charge you 3% on $12,000 in Scene #2 .... double jeopardy for merchants then!

Look here folks, we are all here to help one another at this mileage game so it will be played by some. I have bought things online that offered free shipping only to return the items back to the store. I didn't care som much about earning miles on my credit card but I earned enough points to get a nearly free trip to Argentina (which I earned miles on). With my Delta AMEX, I bought hundreds of gift cards at Home Depot, bought batteries, recieved cashed back and put it in the bank. Double miles, batteries and interest on the money back. Who should complain that this is unethical? It worked! That is all that matters. It is best to jump in the game before the game is over. I am all for those who have earned miles in every way possible. More power to you all.

I had a friend who would buy stuff at a airlines website only to return it to the store. Somehow, his miles would always post. He does that every week now and flies to all these exotic destinations. I just could never get myself to do this.

Could you explain where and what they were buying and where they were returning it to for cash?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Postal money orders can only be bought with debit cards and PIN and do not earn FF miles. While I teach ethics at two community colleges in the Los Angeles area, I refrain from giving ethical advice.

You've got to read "MarathonMan's" posts. The B of A / Alaska Airlines debit card allows PIN based transactions that earn 1 mile for every $2 of purchases, and he has been hitting it big buying postal money orders and then depositing them, this way. There was a thread that maybe Bank of America closed this loophole, but it hasn't been verified.

Believe me, the loophole has been closed. Unless you have an immense curiosity about this "scheme's" rise and fall, you don't want to read the posts on this subject.

Scheme or no, should the bank have TOLD people it was gonna change its policies or not? There are those still working hard to try to find out what ever happened in the way of USPS money orders and the good ole' BofA...

Were they... ETHICAL? or just shutting off a dripping valve that we happened to find first?
Hmmm...

I wrote (as did others) a few letters to them and have yet to hear back but some people have heard back. Would you like to read my letter? If so, please email me for a copy of it. Some people then got miles as a result of their writings and calls (back logged ones) and still do get them, and some did not get anything. Sounds like the Sapranos are running the place over there.

Oh well, but you are right, no need to open THAT can of worms. It (that whole BofA very LEGAL "scheme") actually was noticed by WSJ on the other forum, www.frequentflier.com, BTW.

As for returning things for cash and all that, it is STILL what is legit in some stores today so unless they change their own rules to make better security on these things (if they even matter to them) then we mile-mongers will and should find the chances to earn! Deals change and we live with that. Here is one that works in our favor for a while. If 'it stops,' so be it.

Yet, I ask, why is it 'wrong' or 'unethical' when a customer 'finds' or does a 'thing' and not wrong when a store (or a bank) does --or fails to do a 'thing?'

------------------
If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

I don't think that loophole will tend to exist anymore - a lot of schools, now that they have gone to Web-based registration, won't actually charge you for classes until you actually register for them.

In other words, as soon as you get charged, you close a slot that someone else needs.

Mike



[This message has been edited by nako (edited 02-19-2003).]

...and as soon as you unregister, the slot opens, as it does with an airline seat being freed up.

Well, I am no longer in college and when I was they didnt even have computers til I was leaving.

I've been reading this post for a while and find it very interesting. There are merchants that would return an item on the same card type (e.g. VISA, MC, AMEX) but not necessarily the same card number. So you could intentionally buy an item on a mileage earning MC and return it on a non-mileage earning MC. There are ways to do it. However, leaving the ethical questions behind, what would happen if someone could prove that you did an otherwise legal transaction (i.e. exercising your consumer right or buying an item and returning it - unopened, unused and all) JUST for the purpose of getting miles:

1. Will the Airline cancel your FF account?

2. Can any civil actions be taken against you (can someone sue you?)

3. Can any criminal actions be taken against you? (Can you go to jail, is this a criminal fraud?)

Does anyone know the answers to these?? I can guess but I'd prefer not to as I do not know for a fact. Therefore if someone does know the law, do they have anything to say about this??


------------------
Hilton Diamond, CO Gold

The FT'er formerly known as "arawal"

I guess that is sort of like the whole bank of america money order thing... It stopped being able to be done all of a sudden.

I called and asked the CS dept. of that bank to see why they stopped letting miles be earned when you buy a money order. On numerous occasions, I was told that the bank never intended on doing that or allowing it, so they stopped it. They said they found a way to tag each transaction and were looking for anything USPS to make a determination as to whether or not a person bought stamps or something, or just a money order with the PIN card. They said the money order purchases would no longer earn people any miles but would not quantify exactly how and why this was the new rule. Their terms never said anything about it NOT being allowed and they still have nothing saying you cannot do this or why, but yet, it just stopped. No definitive answer and no real reasons.

However, they did say (and I quote low level CS on this one) "We don't want people to earn THAT MANY miles!..."

Hmmm, that's kinda weird too, don't you think?

Merchants, and banks and airlines, it seems, can do anything they want at any time. SO be it. So can we.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gifMM

Only question I have is when you have a combination purchase (you bought a couple of stamps with you're $1,000 money order) does the bank exactly know what you purchased, as to give credit for some, but not all of the transaction?

As far as returning merchandise for cash, I did get about $100 back by check from my dentist for some dental work I paid by credit card. After my insurance payment, I ended up over-paying. Not the easiest way to earn some free miles (going under the drill) but is possible.