He's back ... and he's still blind!
#46
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Programs: Former UA 1K, Premier This Year :-( PAL Mabuhay Elite; Starwood Gold; Marriott Gold
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by alex0683de
A colleague told me yesterday that she's flown Europe-Australia 3 times in the last two years and doesn't have a single mile to her name. I thought I was going to faint...
[shameless plug]
How did we get on that topic? She saw the FlyerTalk luggage tag on my laptop bag...
[/shameless plug]
[shameless plug]
How did we get on that topic? She saw the FlyerTalk luggage tag on my laptop bag...
[/shameless plug]
This is very, very sad. Oh the miles!
#47




Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: BOS
Programs: JetBlue Mosiac, Hainan Fortune Wings, Delta
Posts: 161
Originally Posted by JerryFF
For years people have told me how they have been making money in real estate and urged me to spend just a little time learning some very safe and basic strategies. I told them I didn't have the time, that I was doing fine with my finances and investments.
Now I have over a million miles and points in various programs and they have over a million dollars (actually several millions) and I am wondering how I could have been so blind and unwilling to be converted.
Let's not be too arrogant. Today, I know a hundred times more about miles and points than they do but I would gladly trade my miles for their money.
Now I have over a million miles and points in various programs and they have over a million dollars (actually several millions) and I am wondering how I could have been so blind and unwilling to be converted.
Let's not be too arrogant. Today, I know a hundred times more about miles and points than they do but I would gladly trade my miles for their money.
There is great deal of risk for that reward in the property market. Property is not a very liquid investment and real estate prices were never guaranteed to increase. Not signing up for a FF program is leaving money on the table. It's yours for the taking, you have already paid for it.
These elite deals are not guaranteed either, however. The Economist keeps writing that FF miles are the most over valued currency in the world, so there is a risk of devaluation but you are never going to go upside down on your mileage mortgage......
#48




Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Programs: various
Posts: 4,240
Originally Posted by BigLar
So he asks me, "What would I do with them (the points)?"
I explained about the Preferred Hotels and how he could spend a nice week to 10 days in 5-star properties like the Landmark in London, some really nice digs in Paris, Rome, Milan, and so on. Even some outstanding location stateside. What's not to like?
I explained about the Preferred Hotels and how he could spend a nice week to 10 days in 5-star properties like the Landmark in London, some really nice digs in Paris, Rome, Milan, and so on. Even some outstanding location stateside. What's not to like?
Hotel reward programs can be useful for a few reasons even if one does not anticipate the hotel points being too useful:
a. Collect airline frequent flyer miles or points.
b. Sometimes, hotels give you perks for being a member, even if you have no elite status (e.g. I got breakfast coupons at a Hilton once for having a HHonors account with no status).
c. Some have claimed that hotel reward program members are less likely to be sent to a different hotel in an overbooking situation.
#49




Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Programs: various
Posts: 4,240
Originally Posted by deepdishus
I've been getting a friend of mine to stick with one airline (or two) every time he flies so he can eventually build miles. His reasons for not doing it? 1) "I don't fly enough... just 4x a year" (He flies 3x a year ORD-LAX and once to Brazil) 2) "I can fly cheaper if I look for the lowest fare" (Yeah maybe not more than $30 per flight to LAX) and 3) "It's just too much trouble... one more thing to keep up with" (Should I even comment on this?).
However, I do collect frequent flyer miles and points on those flights, concentrating them on a smaller number of airline programs based on alliances and partnerships[*]. That has still managed to produce some award tickets, despite not concentrating on any given airline.
[*] Basically, I have UA to cover Star Alliance airlines, AS to cover a bunch of other airlines including AA, CO, NW, and DL, and WN for itself.
#50




Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Programs: various
Posts: 4,240
Originally Posted by Skillet
These elite deals are not guaranteed either, however. The Economist keeps writing that FF miles are the most over valued currency in the world, so there is a risk of devaluation
#51
Original Poster
FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Freeload Univ. Where are you sitting?
Posts: 14,818
Originally Posted by pushback
How does one attain Goldness from the AMEX card?
Plus, you will have at least 60,000 points, maybe as many as 100,000. Get 25,000 more and you can get an AXON award, good for 4 nights at a cat 6 hotel (think Paris, Rome, New York) and, especially overseas, your Gold will be treated rather well.
#52
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Programs: Former UA 1K, Premier This Year :-( PAL Mabuhay Elite; Starwood Gold; Marriott Gold
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by tjl
Personally, I don't find any single airline (or alliance) to always be the best for any given trip (schedule convenience, fewest stops, price). So my flying habits tend to use a lot of different airlines.
However, I do collect frequent flyer miles and points on those flights, concentrating them on a smaller number of airline programs based on alliances and partnerships[*]. That has still managed to produce some award tickets, despite not concentrating on any given airline.
[*] Basically, I have UA to cover Star Alliance airlines, AS to cover a bunch of other airlines including AA, CO, NW, and DL, and WN for itself.
However, I do collect frequent flyer miles and points on those flights, concentrating them on a smaller number of airline programs based on alliances and partnerships[*]. That has still managed to produce some award tickets, despite not concentrating on any given airline.
[*] Basically, I have UA to cover Star Alliance airlines, AS to cover a bunch of other airlines including AA, CO, NW, and DL, and WN for itself.
Agreed. And I do the same thing. Although I tend to concentrate more on various airlines within one alliance, in my case Star. However, in my friend's case, he is just all over the place with airlines and hotels and doesn't care much to sign up for any frequent flyer/stay program. So I figured I could maybe introduce some discipline to his flying habits and have him start accumulating something and watch it grow. Hopefully that will result in motivation for him to sign up with other airlines and partners.
#53
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: DC metro
Programs: PC Platinum Ambassador, Marriott Gold Elite, UA 2P, Starwood Gold, Avis First, Bolt Bus $1 Rider
Posts: 1,175
Originally Posted by deepdishus
This is very, very sad. Oh the miles! 

in reality there is a cost to the airlines to provide frequent flier miles and that cost is reflected in the ticket price
if the cost of the airline ticket was broken out, and people realized that around 10% of the fare is going to run ffm programs, the attitdes might change
and then there are some people are just wasteful and dont care
#54
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Programs: Former UA 1K, Premier This Year :-( PAL Mabuhay Elite; Starwood Gold; Marriott Gold
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by jessej
in reality there is a cost to the airlines to provide frequent flier miles and that cost is reflected in the ticket price
if the cost of the airline ticket was broken out, and people realized that around 10% of the fare is going to run ffm programs, the attitdes might change
if the cost of the airline ticket was broken out, and people realized that around 10% of the fare is going to run ffm programs, the attitdes might change
#55




Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SFO, SJC, OAK, LVK AA Lifetime Plat 2MM, LUV A-List, Hyatt Gold, SPG Lifetime Gold, Commercial Pilot (not employed by airlines)
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by deepdishus
This is interesting. I never really got into the economics of fares and miles. So in effect what you're saying is that each person who pays for an airline ticket, regardless of whether he or she is a frequent flyer member with that airline, shares the cost of supporting that airline's FF program?
#56

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,458
Originally Posted by jessej
i believe one cause of this is that many assume that frequent flier miles are free and as such are easy to waste
in reality there is a cost to the airlines to provide frequent flier miles and that cost is reflected in the ticket price
in reality there is a cost to the airlines to provide frequent flier miles and that cost is reflected in the ticket price
#57




Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SFO, SJC, OAK, LVK AA Lifetime Plat 2MM, LUV A-List, Hyatt Gold, SPG Lifetime Gold, Commercial Pilot (not employed by airlines)
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by rc408
The miles are free. They are only a representation of a possible cost to an airline if a ticket or other merchandise is actually reedemed. If the miles are never used there is no cost involved.
#58
Original Poster
FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Freeload Univ. Where are you sitting?
Posts: 14,818
Originally Posted by deepdishus
So in effect what you're saying is that each person who pays for an airline ticket, regardless of whether he or she is a frequent flyer member with that airline, shares the cost of supporting that airline's FF program?
#1. You go to the grocery store. You buy $100 worth of food. You give the cashier $100. Net result -- you get $100 worth of food and you're out $100. End of story.
#2. You go to the grocery store. You buy $100 worth of food. You whip out your credit card and pay for it. At the next billing cycle, you pay the $100 cc bill. Net result -- you get $100 worth of food and you're out $100 (which you paid at your convenience) and you got 100 miles or 500 hotel points or whatever.
Who pays for those miles/points? The customer that pays cash, that's who. The store's agreement precludes them from offering a cash discount, so in effect your mileage-earning is subsidized by the cash customers.
#59
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: DC metro
Programs: PC Platinum Ambassador, Marriott Gold Elite, UA 2P, Starwood Gold, Avis First, Bolt Bus $1 Rider
Posts: 1,175
Originally Posted by pushback
Regardless of usage there are still fixed costs associated with the administration of the program. The miles are also carried as a liability on the balance sheet. There can be costs associated with carrying liabilties on a balance sheet such as being viewed as more of a credit risk which implies the cost of borrowing goes up.
who pays for the mailings to frequent flier members?
who pays for the additional ticket agents to help customers convert miles to tickets?
who pays for the website modifications that allows you to track and/or redeem miles online?
who pays for the whole set of airline employees associated with maintaining and running a frequent flier program
all of these costs must be covered and are in effect added to the price of the airplane ticket
regardless of whether or not any individual chooses to collect frequent flier miles and regardless of if they are ever redeeemed or not
the net effect is that those who dont collect or redeem their miles assist in paying for those who do
here is a another example
food and grocery store coupons
literally billions are spend each year on printing and distributing them
only 5% are ever redeemed
but the cost of the whole pogram is included in the price you pay at the counter
those who dont redeem pay an average higher price than those who do
#60

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,458
Originally Posted by pushback
Regardless of usage there are still fixed costs associated with the administration of the program. The miles are also carried as a liability on the balance sheet. There can be costs associated with carrying liabilties on a balance sheet such as being viewed as more of a credit risk which implies the cost of borrowing goes up.

