I actually laughed out loud at your post wideman... first time ever while browsing a message board. Maybe that's a bad sign.

[This message has been edited by emaij (edited 06-18-2002).]

The problems with nearly all of the presented arguments are:

1. In nearly all FF programs, the miles are the property of the AIRLINE, NOT the account holder; and

2. FF miles have no cash value.

Wideman,

Thank you so much for pointing out that you think I am clueless and that I made absurd comments.
However, I think the original poster asked for our opinions, and I gave mine.

Form vs. substance. Ask a lawyer if you are unclear on the concept.

Yes, they are community property. I too went through a divorce and rather than split them, I sacrificed another asset which could not have been divided.

(Give up miles? What, are you nuts??)

scoop, I'm interested in how you valued the miles in the divorce and what you gave up to keep them!

From what I read on the original post, why would he even put them down on his list of assets.

I mean, it appears from the orig. post that she hasn't asked for them.

It could easily and reasonably be assumed that they are not his property, that they are property of either the airline or employer, or that he 'forgot'. I'm sure that in 99% of the divorces, airline miles are not that big of a deal.

If she asks for them, then the valuation problem will come in.

Finally, the more documentation he can get regarding value from the airline, or from an authoritative source.. yes even Randy.. will help support his cause once he needs to value the miles.

I would start by going to the airline(s) with the balance and seeing what I could get from them. If you don't get what you like, call again, isn't that the airline way..

Also, do they value these in their financial statements? If so that is a possible source.
What about using ebay to see what people are selling them for. Take all of these, or the lowest one. If that doesn't cut it, have a formula prepared that will give you the lowest value. Have a note from your employer, or if they do have a policy that the miles belong to the company, print it. If they are non transferable, print that rule. Print/Support anything you can that goes to his advantage.

Remember too, if she has any miles whatsoever, those can be used to offset his balance. If she has any outstanding credits from the airlines, use those to offset. Use whatever you can, that normally wouldn't be considered in the asset pool to offset his miles.

But why bring them up in the first place. I know one of you lawyer types will say b/c you have too.. again my arguement is that a reasonable person would not think of this as an asset. Not all people are like us here on FT where it is the most precious asset we own LOL

Maybe FTer's do about miles, but not about what constitutes an asset for divorce purposes. Disclose all to the attorney, let him/her decide.

My personal opinion - the miles are assets, whether or not there is a stated cash value associated with them. If your friend chose not to list them, that's his/her business, but the term "fraud" comes to mind.

If your friend does list them and has to attach a value, I would probably first try to value them at the airlines book cost per mile. Unless opposing counsel is clueless, I doubt this would fly. Cost to one person (or entity) doesn't usually equal value to another. My fallback position would be to find the cheapest third-party valuation I could find. Here's one ($0.01 per mile from a Travelocity contest) that he/she can use for supporting documentation:

http://www3.travelocity.com/promos/m...LOCITY,00.html

FYI: Kansas is not a community property state.

One way to avoid the problems with the miles is a pre-nup.

One issue is being missed here. You can divide miles (by giving some sort of money I suppose) but not STATUS. You can't split a GOLD in half!

Miles are temporary, lifetime GOLD is forever (or until the airline changes the rules)

------------------
munching toward one million AA miles.

nsx--

I gave several examples/lines of reasoning, if you are going to criticize one, then do them all or it is not a genuine critique.

Furthermore, as any cash value is given in lieu of an asset which has no cash value, it would really depend how they were given. $12,500 given for an asset which has no LEGAL cash value may in fact be considered to be a gift. Although there would be a very convincing legal argument that the aforementioned miles would in fact be worth $4800 overall (as I stated previously).

ok, let me try then.

Wouldn't this logic also be applicable to the salary of a spouse then? S/he earned that money for the time s/he spent at the office -- so they belong to said spouse. Stating that one earned the miles for time spent on an airplane is pretty self-evident, I fail to see how this goes to the questions asked (are they assets for the divorce proceedings, and if so what is their value.)

I think wideman did handle this re: Concorde tickets.

New post, same argument.

Unless you are divorcing British Airways (they never game me OJ when I was thirsty your honor!), I'm not sure that BA's estimate of the miles' value (or lack of) is a factor here. This again goes back to the point you made (three times now), as to the miles having no value.

Please again see salary above -- if s/he donated all his savings accumulated prior to the divorce, would that be ok? (I don't know, just asking.)

Already answered by nsx.

Oh yeah -- can of worms and divorce -- those one never sees together. The fact that something is a can of worms seems like a pretty weak argument in court:

hfly, Esq. "Your honor I object! This could become a can of worms!"

Was that before or after you stated they have no value? You argued one could take the value of coach tickets which recently went for $399. It seems then it becomes a matter of assigning a mutually agreed upon reasonable value, much as others have suggested.

[Edited for UBB coding.]

[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 06-19-2002).]

The laws and rules in each state are different. In Massachusetts, anyone involved in a divorce action fills out a financial statement, where one lists the value of both the obvious (weekly income, value of property, value of 401k) and the obscure (firearms, crops and livestock).

After you fill out the financial statement, you sign it just below a statement that reads (and the bolding/capitalization is on the form, not this writer's emphasis):


And p.s.: to whoever suggested a pre-nup as a solution: Don't be so sure. Depending on the state, and especially if the marriage has lasted for 10, or even 5, years, the pre-nuptial agreement may hold very little water.

Wow - Thanks everyone for all of the responses. Of course, some people have very strong opinions one way or another. I purposefully withheld details at the beginning so as not to bias the responses. Now that many have had their say, let me add:

The wife, who was/is a stay-at-home mom to care for 3 kids (one of whom is mentally handicapped) had been married for over 15 years. The husband was confronted and admitted to an affair, but did not want to end the affair or the marriage. Wife files for divorce and kicks husband out of house. Wife knows that husband has earned many miles (worth much in terms of future airline tickets) and wants part of the miles. She was home taking care of the family while he was out earning salary and miles. She probably doesn't care about Gold status or whatever.

Husband has made an offer of "paying" for a ticket to Italy for wife, instead of half the miles. (I don't know how many miles are in question, but it looks like he will have to declare what he has...)

I was just curious as to what everyone thought about the whole idea... of course, actual valuation of the miles or how to split them up is another question. Some pograms could make it vey easy to split a balance 50-50, some will make it very difficult.

Finally, I will quote one of my favorite professors who told me "Free advice is usually worth what you paid for it." The value for me comes from the debate, and the differrent issues that people bring to light. Of course, I would never take (or except others to take) advice given here on such an important matter without consulting with a competant, trusted attorney.

Should miles be included in pre-nups? That depends in part if you believe in pre-nups, which is a whole 'nother ball-game.

You people are ALL fools! There is a VERY easy way to eliminate the entire worry of "how will we divide the assets", and it is so simple I am surprised nobody has mentioned it!

Do not HAVE any assets!

Simple huh? Live way beyond your means, everything you own is on payments, all your money blown on vacations and big screen TV's. When it comes time to cut the cord, all you have to worry about is how to divide up the debt! If you can string this along until you get hit by a bus or have a heart attack, you have succeeded! If you decide to divorce, he/she can find another payday, and you can continue blowing your money. This formula works perfectly, even if you have a couple kids, as they cannot be held responsible for your debt when you croak, and leaving money to your kids is dumb anyway! Are you writing this down

Chris