Getting the Heave-Ho
 

OK......

Anyone actually been de-planed by over-anxious, hyper-neurotic airline personnel? C'mon, 'fess up, you're with family here...... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'd like to know. "Cause, yup, it happened to the Snake. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

AA, November 2001:

Flew in to DFW from DCA, transferred planes. I was sitting in my coach seat waiting for the start of DFW to LAX. Plane still at gate, door open, stragglers boarding. Talking on the cell/mobile to my office in Virginia. FA appears & says "Sir, you need to turn off your phone right now." I say "OK" she moves down the aisle. Wrapping up the conversation, here comes the FA 30 seconds later & says, louder, "Sir I told you to turn off that phone. Do it now!" I shoot her unpleasant look, no words exchanged, tell office "Gotta go" & terminate conversation. Office hears entire exchange.

Main door still open. Trek down the aisle to utilize men's lavatory, FA staring hard at me as I enter the loo. Make comment to FA that passengers in first still talking on phones, thus should be fairness for all passengers re: cell phone usage. Finish lavatory use, go sit down in seat.

Hear captain announce "We're ready to head for LAX, I just have to take care of one minor situation."
Me: "uh-oh."

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Yup. Gut feeling is correct. Here come da judge. Gate supervisor tells me to collect my belongings & follow her to jetway.
No problem, grab carry-on & trail her out to jetway. Passengers around me shaking heads & smiling sympathetic, rueful smiles. One fellow captive says aloud "That ain't right!" On the way out, walking through first, I take silent note of the fact that 2 people are still....talking on their cell phones!

Once in jetway, I ask "What is the problem?" I am told by supervisor that the pilot will tell me the answer. Herewith appears the pilot, explains to me that "the FA is uncomfortable with you on the plane & thus you have to leave the flight." Me, somewhat stupefied, explain to pilot my side of the story.
Pilot unmoved. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I offer that I http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif am actually the person who is uncomfortable with such a neurotic, irrational, anxiety-ridden FA who is supposedly looking out for our (passenger) safety, and who is obviously drawing distinctions between coach & fc passenger phone privileges.
Pilot unmoved. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Pilot says wait right here, ducks into airplane. Here comes my escort the lovely AA DFW Ground Supervisor. Off I go, escorted to terminal by Ground Supervisor. Me, quiet. Thinking maybe it's time to just shut up if I ever want to see LAX. Thinking just get to LAX & deal with bizarro AA nightmare later.

AA DFW Ground Supervisor tells me that some airborne AA personnel "are a little uptight these days" and she will get me on the next AA flight to LAX.

Me, trying to understand: if I was such a massive threat on previous flight, why would AA put me on very next flight?
My Conclusion: it's 10:00am, but there must be a bar open somewhere in the terminal??

AA DFW Ground Supervisor, to her everlasting credit & my everlasting confusion, upgrades me to Business Class on very next AA flight from DFW to LAX.

I conclude AA flight to LAX in haze of gin & tonic, mulling over my new incarnation as "Threat to Humanity."

I write a letter to CEO of AA. I received reply from drone assistant to CEO citing AA policies ad nauseum. No apology offered to me from AA, I get the "that's the way it goes, we have our policies" response from AA.

Bottom line: I'm not embarrassed. Quite the contrary, I strongly believe that AA should be embarrassed to have on-board FA's who should be actually be in therapy, or working at 7-11, or anywhere but in the air.

It has become a good story to tell in the company of friends.

Yeesh.


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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

Hmmm....another snake has insomnia. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Sounds like you handled it well. You rattled a bit but didn't bite. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sorry, it wouldn't have happened if you had done what you were asked with the phone and not made a big deal about others.

Was the FA wrong? Perhaps, but each of us should take responsibility to do everything that WE can to make for a better flight and environment.

Accepting everything as written above, I have to disagree with you. 99% of the FAs put up with a whole more than they give but I hear an example of an FA going the wrong way on the authority path. The error appears to me to be on the part of the Pilot in Command. A pax acting funny and not "jumping-to" should not be reasons to abuse power. I've seen people really acting funny and talked to in the jetway only to return after being observed by several people, overcoming the initial one person reaction.


[This message has been edited by Warrenlm (edited 12-22-2001).]

Yeah...you sound like a real $% http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif&.


Edited because of the Moderator.

[This message has been edited by IM4Travel (edited 12-22-2001).]

Snake,

Obviously you are the one in serious wrong here --
1) Talking on the cell phone --- What is your problem? -- everyone knows the fact that cell phones somehow can bring down the whole FAA tracking system and here you are using one.
2) You are certainly in a time warp - You state you were on the phone 30 seconds -- now is this a) "Honey I will be ready in half a minute" 30 seconds? In which time I can watch the next 2 innings of a game or Dad, I'm starving I need to eat in like the next 30 seconds -- which will then be followed up by "Are we going to eat yet?" even before the soundwaves of the first question have yet to reach my eardrums.
3) and I think this the fatal flaw -- You went to the bathroom. What were you thinking? --- you were still on the ground. Again this is a part of the mass of knowledge - you don't go on the ground -- lest the ramp agents have to walk in your mess. I know this since the standard procedure for plane bathrooms is to grind up the "material" and spit it out the back. So when the plane is on the gorund -- hence a large puddle.

Dear Mr. Snake I hope this has been able to clear up a misunderstanding of you not seeing the folly of your ways.

And the again everyone knows the F/C has a neutron energy shield that stops the evil rays from cell phones.... and the reason the F/A had to throw you off was not only are you a serious risk -- see reasons above --but your keen sense of obsersvation noticed the F/C pax chatting on phones -- the secret must not get out --

Warning - for those of you still reading -- all of this was typed with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Snake I think you handled it as well as you could and an upgrade is not all bad.

A good read.

------------------
TANSTAAFL - but if you work it right, FF miles comes pretty close.

Only if I were on your flight! If I had been there, I would insist the pilot talk to the PAX and call the Airlines on the mobile phone (I would still be talking on the phone.)

They may throw me off, but if a captian does not want to look at the facts, I don't want him flying a plane.

What? Me? I'm being falsely accused, everybody picks on snakes! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Mr Snake (edited 12-22-2001).]

Interesting replies from one & all. I knew that I could count on that!

BTW, on the flight from DFW to LAX that I was (finally) placed on by AA, the FA made the announcement that "Cellular phones may be used until the captain orders the main cabin door closed." Hearing that announcement I felt:
a) Relieved & vindicated, since that was exactly what I was doing when FA Eva Braun gave me the heave-ho for being on the phone as we sat at the gate for the first DFW-LAX flight.
b) Annoyed, since there seems to be no firm & consistent AA policy on phone usage.
c) Screwed, because FA Eva was obviously in a position of authority & power over other humans & she grossly abused her authority.

As events unfolded, I thought of calling powers-that-be & refusing to leave, much as JRF has mentioned. I quickly decided that in this day & age, that course of action would more than likely land me in the airport clink with some sort of federal charge slapped on me. Then lawyers fees, more Kafka-esque behavior from the Controllers of Our Destinies...nah! That's why I went gently into that good night.

I disagree with drtravels: your interpretation of my actions is off-base ("...not made a big deal about others"). You seem to have missed the fact that I DID suck it up & Snake Pliskin didn't bite, as eastwest has noted. However, I cannot & will not just roll over, kick my paws in the air, & whimper when someone is abusing me with their authority. I turned the cheek far enough - at some point one must speak up for oneself before there ain't any cheeks left.(: Especially when it is moi who gets the hook from stage-left while the suits in first chat merrily away on their cellphones.
Then again, maybe your style is just different from mine, eh?

As CFM3RD so aptly put it (to paraphrase), sometimes ya gotta handle it as best ya can
& look at the bright side: the upgrade.(: BTW, CFM3RD...whip-snap wicked sense of humour you've got there, yow! If you & JRF had this happen to you all, you'd probably be flying free for life.

Actually, Warrenim hit the nail on the head re: the captain's responsibilities. It's the cap's ship, his flight crew, & his passengers. When he told me to wait a moment, then turned & nipped through the main cabin door, and the next thing I see is the door being sealed with me standing forlornly in the jetway......I actually laughed out loud. Talk about avoiding the issue & refusing to make a valid decision: he scooted into the ship, probably told everyone he made a captain's decision re: said dangerous passenger with cell-phone & then in his most stentorian tone said "Seal the main cabin door!" Ah, the drama. No cojones there at all.

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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

While I shouldn't judge since I wasn't there, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the pilot may have been showing "solidarity" with his flight crew.

On that note, too bad you didn't pursue the FA who pulled this. You could have written in to get her on the path to being relieved of a job she's clearly not cut out for. And I don't want to hear this whining bullshiit nonsense about, "The FA's have it tough these days, waah, waah, waah." That's their goddammed job. It's their job to be on the ball and to be on the up and up, which means *not* going to lunatic extremes with crying to the front office at every little thing or even sarcastic passenger, all the more BECAUSE OF and NOT in spite of, the situation as of late. If they don't have the wherewithal to maintain their professionalism, even-mindedness, and above all sense of customer-orientation, then they should just get the hell out.

9-11 is NOT an excuse for lapses of attention to professionalism. It is a clarion call to renew and redefine it.

If you can't take the heat...

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 12-22-2001).]

wrong you are. this is cleary an abuse of power by a neurotic FA. snake, i have to commend your restraint in this situation, as i don't know that i would have done the same. do you hold any elite status on AA? if so, call customer service, speak to a non-peon and throw that around a bit. i think you are entitled to more compensation than an upgrade on a later flight, at least according to the 'spirit' of Rule 240. airlines need our loyalty now more than ever before, and this is not the way to ensure it.

Snake, my commiseration's, what they say about fact being stranger than fiction certainly holds true in your case. At least you took it all in stride to your great credit and as you say, now you have a very interesting story to tell.

Looks like you met your Duke of NY on that flight in the guise of an FA http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Great post ETOPS01, hear, hear.



[This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 12-22-2001).]

That is an unbelievable story! How dare they!! I think you should pursue the complaint route again. I'm sure by yanking you off, they made you late into lax. What if you had to be there at a certain time? Can you tell us the FA's name so we can avoid her?

It's too late to complain further with AA. When you voluntarily left the plane, you virtually admitted to being "guilty" (notwithstanding the main cabin door still being open).

Personally, I don't use a cell phone, so it's hard for me to say what I would do as I wouldn't be in exactly the same situation. But it's certainly possible I might be doing something that could have the potential to concern a passenger or crew member, and therefore should be booted off the plane pronto.

Well, if that ever does happen, unlike you, I'm not going quietly. The convenience of taking the next flight is nothing compared to the value I place on my right to due process. If the pilot wants me off the plane, he can have a police officer arrest me. On the plane, not in the jetway. If the FA wants me off, he/she can ask the pilot, who can then ask a police officer to arrest me.

ETOPS01 is right; now is when it is more important than ever that we not allow our freedoms to be diluted by those who abuse their newfound power.

sounds like FA eva needs to start her new career at the Clinique counter. I hope you have complained long and hard about this person.

Wow Snake,

They kinda have us over a barrel, I mean, I dunno about you guys, but if I'm on a plane I have to BE somewhere, and frankly, the hassle of getting arrested etc would probably louse up the end game schedule more than a little bit.

Unfortunately we don't have any real say so in that regard other than to vote with our money. I'd simply write AA and let them know that I spend X thousands of dollars a year on airlines, and I take great comfort in the fact that they will now see not one penny of it from me or any of my teams. Ever.

Which means, realistically, quite a few dollars over the course of a career. Something on the order of a million plus dollars in lost business, and that's a reasonable extrapolation. FAR more than it would cost them to simply apologize and remind their FA's that no clients, means no jobby-poos.

As always, YMMV. But a letter mentioning lost revenue will probably get their attention faster.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Couldn't one get arrested, presumably go to trial, be vindicated, and then turn around and sue the schmucks for malicious prosecution or something?

Not that I'm a big fan at all at sue-you-sue-me. But it seems that this is the only vernacular people know these days when it comes to responsibility and accountability.

It's an extreme example of a general problem: domestic flight attendants treating passengers like they are schoolteachers in charge of first-graders. Most flights I hear flight attendants scolding passengers over the PA system for daring to release their seatbelts while the plane is still taxiing or for making the decision to use the lavatory while the seatbelt sign is on. For some reason it has become ingrained in their culture that they are to be cops rather than serving men and women. It serves little purpose and makes the flight experience less enjoyable.

You know, Snake Pliskin, you should consider cross-posting this to the AA board. Besides our official reps, there are also various AA employees there on their personal time who can probably give you some employee-perspective.

Personally, I congratulate you on handling it well and I'm glad that the DFW Ground Supervisor handled it well. Hope you commended her at the same time you blew the whistle on the neurotic FA.

Dear Mr Snake,

I notice all this wonderful advice you're getting doesn't cost the sender a thing.

Actually I think you did exactly the right thing.

What do you gain by making them arrest you? Delays even longer and the potential for more trouble.

So all in all - I don't know anything else to do. Giving the F/A the benefit of the doubt a little bit (and I know some on FT think you should never give that -- each and every one of you has some right to trounce through this world with no one making a blunder at your expense) even so - She may have had a reallll bad day - for whatever reason.
Does that make it right? Or course not - but seeking "just compensation" sometimes costs a lot more than recieved. I admire your use of a great deal of common sense.

Of course not wearing your Braniff Airlines Shirt may help too http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

YOU DA MAN.

Think of the "milage" you'll get out of this story.

------------------
TANSTAAFL - but if you work it right, FF miles comes pretty close.

A snake with paws who whimpers? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Well, I must say that hearing from the bright lights of FT is a privilege. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starsmilie.gif I've been reading many of your postings (Bouncer, Plato90s, eastwest, CFM3RD and others) for quite awhile, and you are seasoned vets of sky travel & Life. Your opinions are from "those who know" and thus carry the weight of consideration. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starsmilie.gif

The problem with getting arrested is just that: you're busted, you go directly to jail, you do not pass Go, you sit for hours, (and if it's a weekend you will rot until Monday when the courts re-open), you get a bologna sandwich with water, you are in a stinking cell with concrete benches to sleep on & open toilets to utilize alongside unsavory, violent dudes & lots of surly, hateful cops & jail guards. In short, it's a completely de-humanizing experience that I'd rather not go through in my life. And yup, as you may have concluded......Snake's done been there & gone through that in several places in the US of A for various idiotic younger-dumber-days activities. So I do know of which I speak. In addition, you will always have to answer "yes" when you are asked if you've ever been arrested & then you will have to explain yourself. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant re: "the question."

Contrary to our popular TV culture, you are presumed guilty in our society. After all, you HAVE been busted. The system now holds the rights to your future progress / lack of progress in Life. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Let's take a quick look at my path not chosen with FA Eva: so...busted. That means hiring a lawyer at, oh, say, $200.00 per hour. And that adds up quick, quick, quick to major coinage. You won't get it back, i.e., no refund when found innocent. It would take years of battling AA & their corp attorneys to even get on the docket, and by then...well, ya gotta consider the pros & cons, know what I mean?

I digress. I basically HAD to get to LA on time, or close to, on time. My wife's an actress / dancer & I was trekking to LA to see her on opening night at her gig at The Ahmanson Theatre (Chandler Pavilion). So, getting busted & going after the wacked-out FA & AA in court at a later date was not an option for me. I had to suck it up, and just somehow get my butt to LAX. (Hell hath no fury like a wife who cannot locate husband at important high-fluff Opening Night-yah-yah-event!) Yes, I was upset with the situation with AA & FA Eva Braun. Yes, I was angry, aggravated, felt impotent to affect my own destiny. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif I had to really make the huge effort to force myself to stay calm. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, eh? (To paraphrase Clint.) And sometimes that means just somehow finding the way to survive the moment & enter the fray again on another day...

I'm not saying it was easy. It was a b**ch. Very, very difficult to inhale crap from a person like FA Eva. She does not belong in the air, but rather behind the Clinique counter (se94583, right on the money with that snapshot analysis...!).

I did write a letter to the AA CEO (Carty?). I received the standard AA "these are our policies" blitherings in return. And yes, I did slather on the praise for the DFW Ground Supervisor in the context of my complaint letter to AA re: FA Eva. That Ground Supe was a cut above & had all the right moves from the PAX standpoint.

So here's my strategy, tell me what you think:

Although my favorite airline is Continental ("and on the eighth day the fliers were blessed with Gordon Bethune"), here it is......

I will fly AA until I reach the various elite statuses. I should reach the basic level of preferred status by March 2002. I will then be treated preferentially by the AA people, and I will revel in each & every upgrade & each & every free drink, etc. I will enjoy all of my free perks from the AA organization, and I will say "ahhhhhh yes" when I receive my bonus miles. I will take & take, in short, all of the benefits that I possibly can from the airline that crapped on me.

I will then cease flying AA & revert to an airline that is humane, civil, & professional in its treatment of the paying clientele. I will eventually stroll away from AA with my right hand held high in that universal gesture of disapproval ("Da Bird") & they will recieve no more of my cash.

Si? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
o
No? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Best regards,

Snake Pliskin

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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

Wow, all this over one stupid FA!

I would not blame AA as a company, but would expect something from them for this unruly employee. The pilot did what he had to do.

You appear to have done the right thing by going along with them. The power of the pilot and crew is about as absolute and without question of anything going. You can not win, at least in the short term. You only lose. Smart choices on your side.

And EVERYONE knows you do not have to turn off the cell phone until the door closes. She was having a bad day, and she is the one that should have been removed from the plane.

There is one unknown here. Did you give dirty looks, smart ... comments, or any other gestures when she came by? Be honest here.

And to the person that said by leaving the plane, you made a mistake... he obviously has not tried that move. Can you spell J A I L?

I think you conducted yourself admirably BUT, you gotta ask yourself, what would the real Snake Pliskin have done? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Most "Real Snakes" in the Northern Hemisphere at this time of year are laying low underground. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

By asserting one's rights, two objectives are accomplished. The first is calling their bluff. Is a police officer really going to arrest you for talking on a cell phone when the main cabin door is open, and there are F passengers doing exactly the same thing, who are not being arrested?

The second objective is to demonstrate that we (well, some of us) are not going to allow people to push us around *in the name of safety* or *according to FAA regs*. Please understand I don't condone something like fighting an armed robber because you don't wish to lose your "right not to be robbed". I'm talking about not giving away your Constitutional right to due process (or whatever is the proper term for being arrested only by those with legal powers of arrest, sorry I'm not a lawyer).

An arrest record is not a big deal. Employment applications cannot ask you if you've been arrested. They can ask if you've been convicted of a felony. Come on, this isn't China, where being arrested and being convicted are basically the same thing.

I'll gladly take a day in jail followed by my Constitutional right to a fair trial over a trampling of my rights by some FA with a bad hair day. I know jail isn't fun & games; I have been in jail as a dumb 18 yr old (though only one night, and charges were dropped by prosecution, so there! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ). But there are some things I will not compromise, and my Constitutional rights are one of them.

HAH! The "real" Snake Pliskin would have ...........wait, that's why it's a movie! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

In reality, I absolutely did crank FA Eva Braun a look of severe annoyance, mixed with a disgusted-ya-gotta-be-kiddin-me-lighten-up-honey-you're-lame when I shelved the cell phone. I believe that what sent FA Eva into ballistic orbit was my comment / question as to why are we coach people shut down when the main cabin door is still open & while the FC folks are still yammering merrily away into their phones. Her response was in the mode of "how dare you question me Mister Man / little boy" and then she proceeded to call in the shock troops. She absolutely was abusive of her authority.

Maybe she was listening to too much Destiny's Child & her man-hater thing was in full bloom? Maybe she had a rough outing with her sig other? Maybe she had a dying family member? Maybe it was that universal catch-all...PMS! Just kidding. Sort of. It's anyone's guess, but I was not the cause of her stress, I was merely her flashpoint.

Who knows what FA Eva was going through that day, and frankly who cares?

If FA Eva can't control her own "issues" long enough to be a professional while she's on the job, she belongs behind the Clinique counter at Duty Free. She shouldn't be in a position whereby she is permitted influence over others. She's a menace.

Sure, some of the pax can be a chore for the FA's at times. But the vast majority of us are polite, respectful, and helpful to the crews. Besides, being a FA is essentially a service position when you cut it down to the essentials. And anyone in the service business will tell you that you're gonna encounter your share of bonehead behavior from the clients. Comes with the territory. If she was fed up, or something like that, she needs to find another line of work.

How many times have we seen nasty, condescending looks http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif from FA's when you ask for a bit more cola or water? Many people have encountered surly FA's, unpleasant ground personnel, & others who aren't the cutesy photogenic professionals on the airline television ads. The airline business tends to blame the traveling public for their own bad attitudes. Puuuleeease. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Some of the 'tudes in the FA zone make me sometimes think I'm traveling Amtrak in the sky. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Anyway, for me...'nuff said. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif


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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

JS, I hear you loud & clear. And I agree with you re: the standing up for one's rights. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

The caveat is that, although this may not be China, as you put it, it's still very much "guilty 'till proven innocent" & the onus is on you to hire a lawyer, pay out buckets of money and battle for quite awhile to clear your name / win the case. And any arrest on an airplane is, I believe, definitely a federal crime. Good luck explaining that one away to an employer or to the media or to the feds when you apply for a government security clearance.

We've already seen a tremendous erosion of our civil rights post-Sept 11. Searches, gropes, probes, pat-downs, et.al. all in the name of "the greater good of society." FT people have sent numerous reports of low-paid security donkeys aggressively demeaning & de-humanizing what the donkeys perceive as "rich folk" - it's their moment to avenge perceived slights & to allow their small-minded jealousies & vengefulness to assert itself on the traveling public.

In these times in this country I believe that anything a FA / crewperson states will be taken by the cops / authorities as "the way it went down." Maybe later, when the dust settles, you'd see reason & rational behavior from the authorities, but not in the short term run.

So, yes, I agree with you, but I hedge my bet by looking around at the current climate.

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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

This is obviously an outrageous abuse of authority. And anyone who has seen my countless previous posts about "security" knows how I feel about the kabuki theater that has been taking place at airport checkpoints for 3 months now. But let's be real clear about one thing: The security people, the airlines and the government absolutely will stick together on this, even when the passenger is right. The "authorities" believe that any lack of solidarity will demoralize everyone involved in the process, and they are afraid to let that happen.

The FA in this case probably said something to the captain like, "This passenger seems to have an attitude, and I don't feel comfortable having to deal with him in the sky where reinforcements are far away." The captain probably thought to himself that she was overreacting, but what could he do? He had to support her, so he threw Snake Pliskin off the plane.

Snake could have refused to leave voluntarily, in which case he would surely have been arrested for refusing to obey a crew member, and no court in the land would back him today -- maybe a year from now, but not now. It's analogous to laws requiring you to obey a police officer, even when he is wrong. You obey NOW and protest later. That's what Snake did, and I support him all the way.

Pick your battles. On the other hand, the airlines will certainly go bankrupt if this continues indefinitely. Even inveterate frequent flyers like me will not willingly endure this crap forever.

Bruce

Bruce puts it perfectly.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

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Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

snake,

You need not stir a hornet's nest by referring to China in the manner that you have.

Many people who speak of China or other countries in the context of "human rights" are often greatly misinformed by the American media's ignorance, deliberate misinformation, and propaganda. Many of the sheeple saying the things they do about the "human rights records" of other countries and what not are merely parroting what they hear, see, believe from the media at unthinking face value.

The US does not itself even greatly exemplify the principles of its own definition of justice and righteousness. Look no further than the many statements made to this point in this thread. That habitual application of double-standards, my friends, is why we Americans are so reviled throughout much of the world. Others don't like it when we call out others for flicking their boogers when the snot from our own noses is hanging off our chins.

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 12-23-2001).]

Unfair accusation! Snake was just repeating what someone else had posted. Anyway, having visited and worked in 50 countries, including China (5 trips in the last year and a half), I have yet to find one -- including the U.S. -- where the justice system doesn't assume that you are guilty until proven innocent. The U.S. claims to operate in the reverse manner, but does it really? I don't think so.

Bruce

Bruce, my friend,

That Snake P. was "posting what somebody else did" is my point exactly!

Look, now that I've made my point, I don't want to drag this thread off course. The main point is that the FA in question - and many like her - should no longer be at a job that they can no longer handle. The post-9/11 circumstances should not be an excuse for intolerance and unprofessionalism, but a reminder to us *all* of what we're about, what we're doing, and how we can *truly* honor the blessings we have as Americans by making the most out of them, at our jobs and in our communities. *Not* blind flag-waving, "Yeah! What he said!" solidarity, but contemplated actions that will make a meaningful contribution to our society. Getting one of your customers kicked off the airplane cause you didn't like him for whatever reason may make a great war story to tell your FA buddies. But it sure doesn't bode well for elevating the perception of some FA's as "sky waitresses" incapable of more complex thought, and certainly doesn't ride consistent with the company line to encourage more to take to the skies.

Meaningful action is what counts - not plastering your leased 40-ton SUV with flags and bumper stickers while still driving around aimlessly because you're "on the clock" and are looking to kill the 30 more minutes til quitting time.

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 12-23-2001).]

I agree with Bruce as well. The problem is that we, as the passengers, are powerless to object in the present climate. The airlines have to be made accountable for their employees' actions. This particular FA, and pilot, should be severely reprimanded. If they have a problem flying with passengers, they can leave their jobs and find something more suitable.

This should definitely be posted in the AA forum.

Perhaps I'm missing the point as I often do but wouldn't this not have happened if the cell phone was turned off in the first place when you were asked? I'm not saying that it was fair or right that you were asked but complying with crew members instructions are required. Maybe this FA was responsible for the area you were sitting in and was taking care of her responsibilities. Maybe the higher ground would have been more satifying. Lots of maybes.

Many things may not seem fair or right but there are the appropriate response. I go to court over the speeding ticket rather than not sign it or blast the police officer. I comply with a supervisors directive and file a grievance if I disagree. I am asked to do something on board the plane and I comply and handle the situation at the appropriate level later. So it goes with most situations as someone else is usually driving the bus.

These are my thoughts and I think there are many "right" options in the same situation. Yours may have been right for you. If I am not satisfied with a situation I first ask "was there anything that I could have done to have made it better." It helps me put it into perspective.

Happy Holidays and flying.

Dick

I never got kicked off the plane, but it ALMOST happened to me at La Guardia once with UA. Luckily it was a ground staffperson as opposed to a FA that was the problem.

You never know what's going to set someone off...I honestly can't remember what it was that I did or said to upset the UA person I mention, but I clearly remember him threatening to keep me off the flight and to call the police, and my thinking OH MY GOSH this is such a joke. Actually, the thing that saved me from getting kicked of in my case WAS the pilot and FA's on the flight. I was in my seat, and other employees had heard/seen everything. They gave me sympathetic looks and a couple even appologized to me. When the screwed up staffer came on the plane, and told the pilot to kick me off the plane, the other ground staff and flight attendants that had seen what happened told the pilot that I was fine and basically told him not to listen to the irate ground staffer.

I was pretty rattled and angry and upset anyway, and did contact Customer Relations and complain. They told me to write a letter which would be put in his file, which I did.

I agree, unless you have allot of time on your hands and a good lawyer on retainer, playing the hero and getting arrested probably isn't the way to go. I think that some small measure of accountability can be gained through small claims court. Luckily in SnakeP's case the Ground supe sorted it all for him but if he had been left hanging surely he could have made an application for redress in small claims court. I filled out a complaint against TWA for refund of change fees when it was their mistake and they didn't even respond so I won by default. Nice thing about small claims is that you avoid the $200/hr fees and all it takes to file (at least here in St Louis) is to put down your compliant on a special form and send it in to the court.

Do you mean, just submit?

Sometimes.

I've spent pretty much the last 30 years being a jerk (I'm not suggesting that anyone here is one http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) and have finally come to the conclusion that most things are relatively insignificant. I've found that I'm a much happier person (and the people around me) when I let these things go or deal with them after I've had time to think about them. This works for me. I apologize if I have come off as preaching or implying that others should take the same approach as I do.