Selling miles
Nov 1, 2001 | 8:16 am
#16
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: nurnberg, germany
Posts: 286
AS Flyer,
If you are breaking a contract you are not violating a criminal law. That would be a civil suit, totally outside the criminal system. Though the totality of the results of the civil suits surrounding is mixed with regard to which party prevailed, other than in cases of fraud beyond the mere selling of miles, I don't recall any criminal actions
If you are breaking a contract you are not violating a criminal law. That would be a civil suit, totally outside the criminal system. Though the totality of the results of the civil suits surrounding is mixed with regard to which party prevailed, other than in cases of fraud beyond the mere selling of miles, I don't recall any criminal actions
Nov 1, 2001 | 10:07 am
#17
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Massachusetts, USA; AA 2.996MM & Plat Pro, DL 1MM, GM & Flying Colonel
Posts: 25,036
The California law isn't against selling miles. It's against "using any ticket in violation of its terms of carriage" or similar language. So, if anyone is at risk under this law, it would be whoever bought the miles and tried to use the award ticket. Since the seller isn't using a ticket, he or she is not (under this statute) performing an illegal act.
[I am not a lawyer. As legal advice, this is worth no more than you paid for it, perhaps less.]
I am not aware of anyone being charged under this law for using an award ticket purchased in violation of an airline's FF program policy, but I haven't looked very hard. If anyone knows of a case (not "my brother-in-law had this waitress at a diner who said the person who delivers their ketchup has another customer who ...," but REALLY knows) I'd like to hear about it.
If you really don't care about what Delta might do to your account, I'd say the other risks are negligible.
However, a long discussion of this here may not be a good idea. Randy Petersen, who provides us with this site as a free service, depends on the airlines' good will for his livelihood. Anything that could be interpreted as encouraging people to violate airline rules will not endear him to them.
Personally, I'd do one of two things:
(1) Ask Delta what their list of charities is and pick the one I like most.
(2) Top up the account to 40,000 miles by sending someone flowers, and give a 40K award to my favorite niece/nephew/etc.
[I am not a lawyer. As legal advice, this is worth no more than you paid for it, perhaps less.]
I am not aware of anyone being charged under this law for using an award ticket purchased in violation of an airline's FF program policy, but I haven't looked very hard. If anyone knows of a case (not "my brother-in-law had this waitress at a diner who said the person who delivers their ketchup has another customer who ...," but REALLY knows) I'd like to hear about it.
If you really don't care about what Delta might do to your account, I'd say the other risks are negligible.
However, a long discussion of this here may not be a good idea. Randy Petersen, who provides us with this site as a free service, depends on the airlines' good will for his livelihood. Anything that could be interpreted as encouraging people to violate airline rules will not endear him to them.
Personally, I'd do one of two things:
(1) Ask Delta what their list of charities is and pick the one I like most.
(2) Top up the account to 40,000 miles by sending someone flowers, and give a 40K award to my favorite niece/nephew/etc.
Nov 1, 2001 | 10:55 am
#18
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Third planet from the Sun
Posts: 7,024
California has all sorts of anti consumer laws that I question are ever enforced. A good example is the seller of travel fee's any travel agent that does business in california has to purchase. Any agent that sells a ticket to/from California has to pay the yearly fee even if they are not based in california. I would like to know how many non California based agents are even aware of this requriement in the first place. Seems like most non-California agents are breaking the law every time they sell a ticket to/from California.
Nov 1, 2001 | 11:48 am
#19
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London; Bangkok; Las Vegas
Programs: AA Exec Plat; UA MM Gold; Marriott Lifetime Titanium; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,876
California Penal Code section 483:
Added in 1979. Welcome to the wonderful empire of California. Think some heavy lobbying might have gotten this passed?
Now find me anyone that has been prosecuted under this statute... And note that it does not apply to buyers...
[Edited to fix quote]
[This message has been edited by Always Flyin (edited 11-01-2001).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Ticket Scalping.
Except as otherwise provided in Section 26002.5 of the Government Code and Sections 40180.5 and 99151 of the Public Utilities Code, any person, firm, corporation, partnership, or association that shall sell to another any ticket, pass, scrip, mileage or commutation book, coupon, or other instrument for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof, or of the book or portion thereof from which it was detached, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.</font>
Except as otherwise provided in Section 26002.5 of the Government Code and Sections 40180.5 and 99151 of the Public Utilities Code, any person, firm, corporation, partnership, or association that shall sell to another any ticket, pass, scrip, mileage or commutation book, coupon, or other instrument for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof, or of the book or portion thereof from which it was detached, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.</font>
Now find me anyone that has been prosecuted under this statute... And note that it does not apply to buyers...
[Edited to fix quote]
[This message has been edited by Always Flyin (edited 11-01-2001).]
Nov 1, 2001 | 12:43 pm
#21
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,149
So far as donating miles goes....
You may mean well, but you are really only helping the airlines. They burn liabilities, while giving away seats that cost them nothing as they otherwise would have been empty.
Why don't I see sick kids filling the empty seats on airplanes? If the airlines cared, they'd let people in need go standby for free at anytime. Give the airlines my miles? Very funny. It costs them about $5 to let those people on the plane. They don't need my or your miles.
My advice, save your miles for a time when you or a family member or friend need them. Bereavement fares are often higher than unrestricted coach. That's when miles are really worth their weight in gold.
You may mean well, but you are really only helping the airlines. They burn liabilities, while giving away seats that cost them nothing as they otherwise would have been empty.
Why don't I see sick kids filling the empty seats on airplanes? If the airlines cared, they'd let people in need go standby for free at anytime. Give the airlines my miles? Very funny. It costs them about $5 to let those people on the plane. They don't need my or your miles.
My advice, save your miles for a time when you or a family member or friend need them. Bereavement fares are often higher than unrestricted coach. That's when miles are really worth their weight in gold.
Nov 2, 2001 | 6:56 am
#23
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: St Petersburg, FL, USA
Posts: 2,275
Don't put the contagious kids next to me!!!
Good idea, BoSoxFan. You never know when you'll need to fly somewhere immediately, and that's like keeping an insurance policy in your back pocket.
That said, I'm in favor of selling miles/tickets. The airlines are losing so much money at this point I would think that FF mile "security" budgets have been reduced, if not eliminated.
Good idea, BoSoxFan. You never know when you'll need to fly somewhere immediately, and that's like keeping an insurance policy in your back pocket.
That said, I'm in favor of selling miles/tickets. The airlines are losing so much money at this point I would think that FF mile "security" budgets have been reduced, if not eliminated.
Nov 2, 2001 | 7:45 am
#24
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Chicago
Programs: United 1K, American EXP & 3 Million Miler, Hyatt Globalist & Marriott Ambassador Elite
Posts: 2,387
You could also put them into Diners Club 1:1 and have ~40,000 Diners Club points which could be used for a lot of thing and at a minimum 20,000 miles on another airline, 40,000 on British Air most summers).
Nov 2, 2001 | 8:05 am
#26
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 63
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Always Flyin:
...that shall sell to another any ticket, pass, scrip, mileage or commutation book, coupon, or other instrument for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof, or of the book or portion thereof from which it was detached...</font>
...that shall sell to another any ticket, pass, scrip, mileage or commutation book, coupon, or other instrument for passage on a common carrier, for the use of any person not entitled to use the same according to the terms thereof, or of the book or portion thereof from which it was detached...</font>
(On the other hand, there may be useful exceptions in the other sections noted.)
p.s. - And ditto the thanks to Always Flyin for tracking down that cite. I'd never heard of that one before...
[This message has been edited by Lucky5 (edited 11-02-2001).]
Nov 3, 2001 | 5:07 pm
#28
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,416
QL: In this instance I don't believe that interstate commerce is relevant. First, it is a criminal statute on the individual doing the transaction. (Anyone driving a car on a freeway is potentially engaged in interstate commerce, but you can still get a speeding ticket.) Secondly, I am fairly certain that there isn't any federal statute to the contrary, so no express preemption. Third, by memory, the courts have determined that you can even sue an airline, in state court, over certain types of claims which are not deemed to be preempted.
So, I would suspect that states do have the power.
So, I would suspect that states do have the power.
Nov 3, 2001 | 8:04 pm
#30
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,810
From someone who has sold well over 2.5 million of their own frequent flyer miles (not necessarily me) here are a few suggestions:
1. NEVER involve a 3rd party (an online mileage broker for example) in the transaction, they only complicate matters plus they are unnecessary as there are too many easy ways to deal directly with potential buyers (newspaper or online classifieds, ebay, etc) without a middle man taking his cut.
2. ALWAYS tell the potential buyer that your award ticket is 100% transferable but also warn them that the airline says that the miles shouldn't be bought/sold/bartered.
3. Tell the potential buyer that should they be asked by the airline if they bought the ticket they should reply that you GAVE them the ticket - along the same lines if the prospect of telling a lie at the check-in counter causes the buyer a moral dilemma then you should advise them to NOT buy your award ticket but to rather purchase a conventioinal ticket from a travel agent or directly from the airline.
4. Make sure that the buyer has your contact info (and vice versa) should they need it in the highly unlikely event that the airline does give them the third degree about the ticket. If both you and the buyer assert that the ticket wasn't sold then how can the airline prove otherwise? At the same time make sure that the buyer is able to quickly answer the question from the ticket clerk, "Who transferred this ticket to you?", if their answer is , "Duhh" then they may shoot themselves in the foot.
1. NEVER involve a 3rd party (an online mileage broker for example) in the transaction, they only complicate matters plus they are unnecessary as there are too many easy ways to deal directly with potential buyers (newspaper or online classifieds, ebay, etc) without a middle man taking his cut.
2. ALWAYS tell the potential buyer that your award ticket is 100% transferable but also warn them that the airline says that the miles shouldn't be bought/sold/bartered.
3. Tell the potential buyer that should they be asked by the airline if they bought the ticket they should reply that you GAVE them the ticket - along the same lines if the prospect of telling a lie at the check-in counter causes the buyer a moral dilemma then you should advise them to NOT buy your award ticket but to rather purchase a conventioinal ticket from a travel agent or directly from the airline.
4. Make sure that the buyer has your contact info (and vice versa) should they need it in the highly unlikely event that the airline does give them the third degree about the ticket. If both you and the buyer assert that the ticket wasn't sold then how can the airline prove otherwise? At the same time make sure that the buyer is able to quickly answer the question from the ticket clerk, "Who transferred this ticket to you?", if their answer is , "Duhh" then they may shoot themselves in the foot.