I like deals, but something just told me there was something a bit wrong with that sort of deal... :D

In the 1990s I actually sold a few awards thru brokers. I had lost my job requiring me to travel & I was working part-time as a restaurant manager, so I needed cash more than free vacations.
One broker told me only his first name Jeff & signed his check to me with an illegible last name, which I learned from my caller ID unit.
Another broker instructed me to book a ticket with only 7 days advance. When the check did not arrive, I cancelled the ticket the evening before the flight & re-deposited my miles. That con man or his buddy had no ticket on arriving at the departure airport :D ! Then I stopped selling miles.

Nowadays I need all the miles &or hotel points ( which make it easier to use miles :) ) that I earn.

If I was going to selling things for a decent amount of money, I think I'd require cash.

How many FF miles came as part of the deal? If there were no miles included, then I wouldn't have done it.

Hopefully these mileage brokers have another job. Can you imagine trying to make a living this way?

I think it's important to note that there are honest coupon brokers.

When airlines (and, alas, Frequent Flyer) try to label all coupon sellers as criminals, it's like casinos falsely labelling card counters as "cheats." Counting cards at blackjack isn't a crime; neither is buying or selling airline miles.

But in many casinos, card-counting is "against the house rules" (which is not the same as against the law). And buying or selling miles is against airline policies. But it's not illegal.

In fact, the airlines themselves have developed a nice little side business selling miles.

Back to the original topic: If you buy a flight coupon from a broker, pay only with a credit card. The crooks usually avoid credit card payments because if you paid with a credit card and got ripped off, you can have the charge reversed.

There may be exceptions, but outfits that accept "cash only" clearly are more risky for the customer.

In the mid-90s I used one coupon broker for a number of international trips. Never any problem, terrific service, very straightforward. (That was before I recognized the benefits of concentrating my mileage earnings on one primary program.)

I fully agree with your analysis, 1KDAN. The term "illegal" is ambiguous. Its broadest meaning would include a breach of contract. Usually what we're talking about with money for miles is nothing more than breach of contract. It is not necessarily immoral to breach a contract. Indeed, many contracts law scholars believe contracts should be breached under many circumstances.

However, I think most people understand "illegal" to mean criminal. The airlines make the most of this ambiguity, and discourage the "illegal" sale of miles. If lots of folks imagine a sentence in the Big House for selling miles, that's okay by the airlines.

ticket brokers - "safety"
 

I am in general agreement with you and 1KDAN about not "illegal" and no implications of immorality, dishonesty, or anything of the sort. (Don't see any relevance to 1KDAN's point about the airlines being in the "sideline" business of selling miles. They can giveth and taketh away miles, and however they go about it does not make it a "sideline" rather than "mainline" business for them.) But you neglect the real risk to the would-be buyer or seller of miles. They need not fear a sentence in the Big House, but sellers might reasonably fear they will see their miles forfeited and accounts closed, while buyers might reasonably fear they will be out the money and without the benefit of a ticket, or worse still, perhaps stranded in the course of their travels.

Do you think I am wrong, that it is entirely safe to use brokers if one can be reasonably satisfied they are not dealing with scamsters? If there is a lot of experience out there with ticket brokers, it would be interesting to hear about it from our fellow FTers.

My only experience with using a broker was over 20 years ago. I did get questioned by the airline as to how I knew this guy (whose miles were used), and why he was using his miles to get a ticket for me. I don't think I would do it today. I would be OK with getting an award ticket from somebody I did know.

I also used a broker a couple of times when I was unemployed and had loads of miles.

He had me book the BC trip to Asia - and I went to the airport and got the paper ticket (he payed for the fedex and the ticket fee)

I sent the ticket COD ($1400 for 100k miles) - which required him to provide cash or certified check...so there wasnt anyway I was going to lose out.

These days have a good job,,get loads of miles, but share them with friends and family

last week, Mum, Aunt and Uncle to see sick dying Uncle

next month sister home to see Dad with Alzheimers

July-Good friend on her 50th with son (16th bday) for a Grand canyon river ride.

The Value of the Giving has become so much more valuable to me!

You're absolutely correct that I didn't address other risks when using a coupon broker (or, for that matter, any third party's miles). I was just responding to the characterization of all coupon traders being crooks.

I definitely would not describe such activities as "entirely safe."

As you point out, all the airlines do wield the power to refuse to honor tickets, cancel FF accounts, etc., if they catch you breaking their rules.

Your question limits the "safety" issue to when dealing with honest coupon brokers (vs. scammers).

At minimum, you have three links in the chain:

The coupon seller.

The broker.

The coupon buyer (who also is the passenger).

(It's possible the buyer and passenger could be different people -- e.g., you're purchasing the flight coupon for a friend or relative to use.)

If the broker is honest & capable, they'll know how to deal with the buyer, the seller, and the airline (making the reservation) discreetly.

The good broker also takes pains to qualify the seller -- know who the person is and how he accumulates his miles.

And the broker preps the seller: What to do in the unlikely event that a suspicious airline calls to ask about the flight coupon transfer.

And the broker preps the buyer: What to say if interrogated. (I don't recall anyone ever asking me any questions at all at the airport when I used someone else's miles.)

At this point, I can't avoid acknowledging that if interrogated, the only way to get what you're after (the seller wants money, the buyer wants a cheaper ticket) is to lie. So it's entirely valid for a critic to say, "It may be legal, but you might have to lie to do it."

Some people would avoid the possibility of such an encounter purely out of principle. That's laudable.

Some would avoid the possibility out of fear. That's understandable.

Some people would rationalize it in some manner:

"The airlines shouldn't prevent people from doing what they want with their miles"

or

"If the airlines were more fair in the way they set their fares, I wouldn't have to resort to such a measure"

or

"This airline has caused me so much grief over the years that it's only fair...."

Regardless of your rationalization, the truth is you might have to lie to an airline to complete such a transaction.

And, of course, some people have no problem at all with lying, under any circumstance. (But those people probably are not the kind you want to be involved with.)

So in the unlikely (but possible) event that the airline calls the seller, the seller needs to be both willing and prepared to lie: "Yeah, that's my brother-in-law, Dave, in Omaha. He's too cheap to pay his own way to visit us."

(The coupon broker has briefed the seller on the name & address of the buyer.)

Likewise, the buyer has been briefed about the seller. So if queried at the airport, the traveller knows to say, "Where did I get this ticket? My brother-in-law, Bob Whosis, gave it to me. Why?"

"Where does Bob live?"

"Huh? Well...He's in Nebraska. Just outside of Omaha. Why? Is that important?"

"No, no. Just checking...."

And, of course, it behooves the traveller not to blab about the arrangement to strangers.

My own experiences were a decade ago, always as a buyer, always with the same company (which, last I heard, still exists.)

I hasten to add that my transactions never involved United Airlines, so hopefully my disclosures here won't end up starting a UA investigation that jeopardizes my account. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, at a certain point I decided it was wiser to reap the benefits of highest elite status on one airline.)

The first time I used a coupon broker, I was very nervous about every aspect of the arrangement. Because that first time went smoothly, the broker employed real people who answered their own toll-free number, freely gave out their address, answered as many questions as I could think of, reassured me when necessary, and followed through on all their promises, from then on I called them whenever I wanted to use a broker.

I most often used them for international flights. My clients are responsible for my Business Class airfare. I would -- truthfully -- tell my client, "The lowest business class fare from my city to yours is ($7,500). If I use a coupon broker -- which is legal but against airline rules -- I can get a First Class ticket for $3,400. Which would you prefer?"

Oddly, they always preferred $3,400 to $7,500...And I flew First Class on the long journeys.

(But I didn't accrue miles, which is why eventually I deserted this strategy.)

The only time there was even the hint of a glitch was when, prior to a trip, I received a phone call from some security person for British Airways, located in New Jersey.

She was suspicious. Clearly trying to bluff me, she said something like, "You can't fly on this ticket."

I say "trying to bluff me" because I'm guessing she was hoping I'd panic, admit guilt, and throw myself on her mercy.

Instead I immediately became indignant and acted as any 100% legitimate passenger would:

"My hosts in London sent me that ticket. They said they're using the miles of one of their members, and they said it's all above-board and legal. Are you telling me it's not?? Because if I can't use the ticket they sent me, I'm not going. I've already been paid my consulting fee, so I'll let them sort out this ticket mess with you."

She immediately backed off, the flight went through without a hitch (except for an unbelievably rude BA flight attendant in First Class -- but I'll save my criticisms of BA's customer service attitude for another forum).

And that was the only time any problem even potentially arose.

I seem to recall I took a number of such flights on KLM, never a problem. (Using someone else's Northwest miles.)

Summing Up:

1. It's legal.

2. It's against airline rules.

3. It might require lying. (And that is the word for it, alas.)

4. With a good broker (one who's not a scammer and does know what he's doing) it's reasonably safe.

5. If you get caught, you definitely can expect to be denied boarding and you also might imperil your mileage account with that airline.

6. If you're the type of person who is law-abiding but enjoys "getting away with beating the system," you'll probably well-suited for it.

7. If you're the type of person who always is very respectful of authority and/or gets nervous in the face of authority, you might want to avoid it.

About 10 years ago my son was using a brokered ticket to Alaska. He was crab fishing and called and asked me to change his ticket home, because of weather he had been stuck at some port, could not reach the airline, and was leaving in the next few minutes to get back on the boat.

The airline immediately became suspicious and begain asking me questions about where he got the ticket etc. I said he was my adult son who had just got out of the Army and I assumed he had the ticket from an Army contact.
I was able to get his ticket changed, but they did question him closely at the airport. By that time he had talked to the broker and had some particulars.

I had used the broker two times for myself before that and always had the sellers particulars (aunt from Toledo) and had no problems.

Selling to Brokers
 

I have sold 100's of thousands of miles to brokers over the past few years. Many times it was easier to sell my miles and use the cash to buy the same seats on the same airlines that no longer had and "miles" seats availible. I prefer to use my miles for redemption to the airlines, but most of the time the cash is used to complete my vacation where I cant use miles. I have never had any issues with ANY brokers. Most of the brokers I have dealt with will make the reservation and ask me to call and book the flight. When calling the airlines I have never had to lie or misinform them about what I was doing. If the ticket was for lets say John Smith, I would call the airline and tell the the reservation number (Already done by the broker) and tell them I wanted to use my miles for this ticket. The airline would confirm the name (John Smith) and destinations and it would be done in a matter of 3-5 minutes. The passengers names NEVER had any similarities to my name. The airlines NEVER asked about relationships or if I was selling these miles.

Once I have the physical tickets they would overnight me a cashier check which included ALL the fees and a return overnight envelope. Most tickets would get me anywhere from 0.016 to 0.0185 per mile which in many cases was better than the airline was willing to reward me with. Some may argue this is wrong, but they are now getting a cash and miles redeption at the same time.



Jim

If you only have AA Gold status, you have a lot less to lose than a top tier flyer there, though, don't you?. If you're only flying 25K a year (and getting most of your miles by credit card) you're not at risk as much as someone flying 100,000, with a lot more miles in account, and not wanting to lose their status (8 VIP's a year are pretty valuable..I wouldn't want to lose them). I won't touch mileage brokers--just not worth the risk for those of us that do have hundreds of thousands of miles in account-- and don't want them to disappear.

Tom in the BA/QF lounge at SIN

I accrue probably more miles than the most frequent flyer, about 800k a year, and yes nearly all are from credit card purchases. Irregardless of how they are accrued, they have the same vale as BIS miles and I too would hate to lose some of the 100's of thousands of miles in my account, or my LIFETIME gold status, But like I said before I have no problem in selling them when necessary and have NEVER lied to any CSR making the reservations.

Jim