-----

[This message has been edited by Canista (edited 09-27-2001).]

Jongar, though I don't entirely agree with your original post, I do appreciate the thoughtful spirit of the way you posted it. Quite a contrast to some of the stuff I am hearing on talk radio. (And now, I will move into a little more sarcastic mode.)

It occurs to me that since we are discussing racial profiling, maybe we should go back to the old-time racial categories. If we do that, surprisingly we see the real connection. Both the Okla City event and the WTC event were carried out by Caucasian males. At last, we see the connection. All Caucasian males are suspect. There is such an obvious connection...how could we have missed it. We were thinking of skin color...how dumb, McVeigh and the Suicide pilots don't appear to have the same skin color. We were thinking of citizenship...no connection there. But when you factor in "gender" and "broad racial category," it is clear. There is a huge Caucasian Male plot. In fact, I see it now, these talk shows hosted by Caucasian Males deriding the Arab Americans are part of the subterfuge. Designed to confuse us. Designed to throw us off the track. Don't you see?

It really is extremely helpful to use these categories to help solve the puzzle.

[This message has been edited by Watchful (edited 09-27-2001).]

As someone who can look Arab (if you're a typical American who can't tell anyone apart http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif) I know I've spent much more time at airport security in the past. It doesn't bother me, everyone's been polite and no one's been judgemental. I don't think anyone, Arabs or others, are upset if they are more closely scrutinized. However, in this land, we're innocent till proven guilty and also should be treated with respect. Being thrown off the plane AFTER you've been checked out and cleared by security is just plain discrimination and unacceptable in the land of the free and home of the brave.

I agree, and it just gives Bin Laden more stuff for his recruitment efforts -- he can point to it as proof that Americans hate Arabs and that's why he wants his recruits to kill Americans.

Consider: The 9/11 terrorists were not "racially" profiled and were checked and cleared by security. Call me a racist if you wish, but given the events of 9/11 and bin Laden's threats/instructions, isn't it much more likely than not that the next terrorist hijacking will be carried out by persons of Arab descent?

I shall not call you a racist but I would like to know what you propose.

The next terrorist attack may not necessarily be by means of an aircraft - it could be any number of other means.

Would you propose that we ban anyone of Arab descent from flying? Maybe forbid anyone of Arab descent from having a licence for firearms? Let's go another step further, how about forbidding anyone of Arab descent from holding a position within any company or organistaion where they might be privy to sensitive information?

I reiterate that I'm not calling you a racist because I understand your concerns, but this is not the way forward. Anyone who thinks it is, has already succumbed to the aims of what the terrorists went out to accomplish.

To play it safe, all we have to do is get rid of all the Arabs, then we'll be safer in the US. Also lock up the crazies like McVeigh; let's just bomb Northern Idaho, parts of Montana; in fact, most of the mid west. Those Southerners are also pretty dangerous iwth their fanatical fundmentalism. Oh, heck let's put them in an interment camp. And through those Yankees in, too................

As we see, it's quite difficult. Where do we stop? Essentially we're very vulnerable in this large, free country, as we cannot control everyone's actions.

Let's hope/pray for Peace while still being vigilant.

Perhaps this is the solution:

http://graphics.theonion.com/pics_37...graph_3734.jpg

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-27-2001).]

I think the latest article by Joe Brancatelli sums up my feelings on this issue, I'm much afraid that I see several of the "cowards and traitors" he refers to posting in this very thread...

http://www.zyworld.com/brancatelli/branc.htm

Cactuspete, most of the people thrown off planes weren't even Arabic. They were Pakistani, Indian, Sikh, or any of the other 'collateral damage' from the collective bigotry.

Some were frequent flyers, some were not. In either case the only thing that stood in the way was bigotry. We do not accept such behaviour on the ground, and just because it's an airplane doesn't mean we have to accept such behavior in the air.

Did we ban all people who look like McVeigh (ie, Caucasian) from renting trucks? After all, one guy did blow up the Oklahoma City building, so to be safe, we shouldn't let any of them rent trucks. That way the country will be more safe.

Of course there's no answer to that (I pose that argument every time and never hear an answer) ...

BTW, On the initial topic of this post 'racial profiling' even as someone who's been profiled in the past, I don't mind being racially profiled. I expect to , and have been, examined doubly closely through security and customs. Doesn't bother me as long as its polite and doesnt presume guilt. I will not accept pilots taking the law into their own hands.. and I hope they and their airlines pay dearly for their judgement mistakes.

I'm one of the business traveller's that Joe talks about. I'm a US Citizen. I'm not Arab. I'm not Islamic. But I'm afraid to fly because people who look like me (who are not Arab or Islamic) are being discriminated against, and so far nothing has been done about it.

This may change soon, however. Utah Attorney General threatens to sue Northwest over three Arabs thrown off flight:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010927/n27285299_1.html
http://attygen.state.ut.us/Attorney%...0Sept%2028.htm

Quite simply, I am suggesting that, at this point in time, it is reasonable to include race as one of many factors in profiling potential terrorist threats. Yes, it may impinge ever so slightly on the rights of a few individuals, but the greater concern of national safety and stability should prevail. The country is at war.

I am not proposing that we go to any of the extremes that you suggest. I am just asking that everyone use a little common sense. Again, I'll ask the same question: Given the events of 9/11 and bin Laden's threats/instructions, isn't it much more likely than not that the next terrorist hijacking/bombing/attack/mass murder of civilians will be carried out by persons of Arab descent?

I believe that the isue is not as clear as the anti-profiling posters on these boards make it out to be. What do you propose?

Edited to add:

There are so many similar threads on FT that I sometimes can't keep track of the arguments and/or issues raised in any particular thread. My comments here and elsewhere were directed at "racial profiling" in general. I concede that the instances of flight crew removing persons based solely on race or skin color, after those persons have cleared security, are inappropriate. In the aftermath and hysteria of the 9/11 attacks, perhaps it was understandable (but not excusable). And if the flight crew doesn't trust security, then surely the passengers had the right to be concerned.



[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 09-28-2001).]

Perhaps. But there are still holes in the security...just as the holes are exploited in the last horrible incident, that's what they would do again (IF the same group of terrorists plan to hijack another plane.)

Consider this: it's easy to steal an identity; some of the suicide terrorists spoke very good english; they could easily lighten their hair, skin and eyes to pass as Americans. Profiling by appearance will do nothing to stop that threat...

Negro??? Sendoisan and all other who use the term negro, Negro went out with the 1950's. Today we describe decendants of slaves as African-Americans.

Jongar, while I do not I agree with your behavior, I do respect your honesty. Try not to allow the terrorist to change who you are as a person or your behavior. We will get through this horrible time in our nation, as we did with the Civil War, Vietnam, the death of JFK and all of the other tradegies in our nation's history. I firmly believe we will come through this time of crisis and become a more perfect union. Have no fear.

Of course they have the right to be concerned. Furthermore, they have the right to disembark due to that concern. Nobody forced them to do anything they didn't want to do. It's just that simple.

I probably should let this die, but ... if the flight crew (whether or not justifiably) identifies a passenger as a security risk, the other passengers should disembark?