Sigh....

This is just getting more and more depressing.

se94583, I wish it were that easy. Just lock them all up and have done with them...There are however, some problems with such an attitude.

First and foremost, all of us are human beings. A small minority (of us..and by this I mean all human beings) are extremists yes, but you find extremists in every race and every religion, from the likes of McVeigh, to the types that bomb clinics and going back to history to the Crusades and the Inquisition.

To isolate and punish 'them' puts you on the same level as the extremists you seek to isolate yourself from. You see, the terrorists look upon us, Americans as the enemy. Every man, woman and child. We are worthless to them and deserve what happens to us (I wish to underscore I'm trying to imagine what the terrorists are thinking I can't speak for them).

So please explain to me how you are different? Oh sure, you're not advocating extermination and I don't mean to imply you would ever even consider such a monstrous act as what occurred in New York, but you are stating treatment that you would never accept yourself because of the way someone looks or because of a place someone might at first glance be from.

Your attitude (in my admittedly not very humble opinion) is the first step towards the extremism we saw demonstrated in NY.

It's wrong, morally. It is also wrong (in our society) because it purports to punish before conviction or due process (to put it in legal terms). Innocence until proven guilty by a jury of our peers is a cornerstone of our SOCIETY and you would do away with it when we need it most. We must not do that, to ANY group. We have to be better than that, even when (or especially when) it is very very hard.

I wish to add a couple of more things. I was a resident of NYC until a couple of months ago. I used to work in 4 WTC with a cubicle overlooking the plaza where people were jumping to their death. My apartment was a 20 minute walk from the World Trade Center. My old building was just south of Houston in the closed area.

I spent two frantic days concerned about the welfare of my friends and was unable to get in touch with them. One is still (and may be forever unaccounted for).

I have been personally affected by this...monstrous event, although far, far less than some.

We need to appeal to our better selves in the face of such a tragedy. We need to feel and grieve, yes, but we need to remember that we are (and have to be) better than those that attack us. We will defend ourselves, yes, but we cannot become what we abhor, we cannot blindly condemn, attack, or hate.

I'm of Latin descent. I, however, have my moments of swarthiness when I don't shave for a couple of days or take a long weekend plane flight to Europe. Having been born and raised in the United States I consider myself as patriotic as anyone although my politics run just a touch left of center. I can't tell you how unnerving it was to see security guards do a double take or tense up as I walked through Dulles airport shortly after the attack (carrying a laptop case and backpack).

I can understand why they did, in a different time it might even have been reassuring, but I can't help but be unnerved and just a little uneasy.

Just my $.02.

------------------
Travel light, travel cheap, travel often

Dude, it doesn't work that way. You're ignoring the context. Was it an Arab neighborhood or an almost completely Jewish one?

Let's put it in another context. If I'm walking around DC (or Brooklyn for that matter, or let's make it a bit more local to you, Milpitas or downtown San Jose) after dark and I see two or three guys on the corner, I'm going to be 'aware'. Whether they are black, Italian, or Latino. Just like I'll also be 'aware' if I'm walking around rural America and I come across a bunch of drunk good ol boys or in suburbia (like San Ramon) and I come across a bunch of partying frat boys from Hayward.

I don't walk around scared because I don't believe that is any way to live. I will be aware of anything out of the norm, however, because I love to travel and want to continue doing so for a very very very long time.


------------------
Travel light, travel cheap, travel often

Since political correctness is by the wayside according to se94583; I do not have one iota of a problem saying you are a one hundred percent certified racist PIG

Yeah, great idea se-whatever. What about the millions of South Asians who look Arab? What about the many Hispanics who look Arab? Well, the Japanese bombed us in 1942, I guess we should have never let any of them out of the internment camps since hey, a few of them attacked us, let's judge our fellow Americans because of that. Or follow Hitler's example and badge everyone based on their race. That'll solve everything, I'm sure.

I can't believe the day has come when I see more tolerance on a hockey bulletin board (where the day after the talk, it was 'kill all the Arabs' -- now its much more muted and a lot of those folks have understood the real enemy here...) than on Flyertalk.

The "racial" component of profiling is just one of the factors that is considered when you are "analyzed" by any countries security forces.

It has it's place and should not be removed for the sake of political correctness.

One of the guys at my employer is a Syrian national...and now he's a landed Canadian immigrant. He just returned on Canada 3000 from Germany three days ago and was grilled and searched intensively both in Germany and Calgary.

Did he have a problem with it ???

Not at all. You see...he doesn't want to die either.

Perhaps airlines should run two flights at parallel times and destinations...one flight with incredible security for those of us with common sense......and one without ANY security for those without any.

And you would choose which flight may I ask ??? Those of you who espouse PC'ness ???

Trojan Horse.....

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said. May I suggest that you be the first to do so ?????

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-25-2001).]

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said.

Exactly!

Its too easy to cry "racist" when there's no suitable counter-argument or solution to the problem at hand. Was Jessee Jackson a racist when he made that famous comment about being happy to see a white face following him in a dark alley? Or was he merely expressing a well-founded sense of watchfulness based on a certain reality? Its amazing that the "profiling" (official or unofficial) that has taken place since 9-11 has uncovered several groups of men engaging in suspicious behavior.

Pop-quiz:

Arab man, with foreign ID, rushes to check-in counter at BOS, apprehensive about missing flight. Bought one-way ticket over the net at the last minute. Can't fully understand the innane questions asked by counter agent because of language difficulty. She waves him on because she doesn't want him to miss his flight.

Should she:

a) "profile him" based on any number of "red flags" and potentially cause him to miss his flight and be embarassed or inconvenienced,

or

b) allow Mohammed Atta to board his flight, kill everyone aboard, and a significant number of New Yorkers as well.

Unfortunately, hindsight is 20-20. But then again, she was PC and cognizant of Atta's right not to be embarassed, which apparently is all some of you folks are concerned about.

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]

You are saying that just because he is Arab he should be stopped. So if you (assuming from your racist comments that you are white) did exactly the same, you would be waived through since you don't fit the racial profile of a bomber??? It's sad to see how all your arguments come back to the fact that Arabs did this bombing so all Arabs are bad.

ana.. did you even bother to read my posts, or do you automatically go into attack mode?

let's sum it up:

#airliners hijacked & blown up by "whites" (since you like to get your jabs against those of European descent) in the past 100 years: 0

#airliners hijacked & blown up by Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Scientologists, Mormans, Shintoists, etc. in the past 100 years: 0

# airliners hijacked & blown up by Islamic terrorists in the past 2 weeks: 4 (with promises and plans for more).

It has nothing to do with race, but everything with threat identification.Right now, we know where that threat is coming from and we shouldn't pretend otherwise just to make ourselves feel good.

See, e.g.,

http://www.nypress.com/14/39/news&columns/beans.cfm

[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]

You may suggest anything you would like, however I'm still going to call a spade a spade and in this case RACIST PIG is the proper term in this particular for the poster being referred too.

Trojan Horse.....

It's time that countries and individuals stopped using the hammer of calling someone "racists" when they have no other logical argument and do not agree with what that party has said. May I suggest that you be the first to do so ?????

[This message has been edited by Carioca Canuck (edited 09-25-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

se94583, perhaps you should stop flattering yourself that people are calling you a racist simply because they disagree with you. I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself and ponder for a moment whether you really are a racist. I don't think anyone else really has any doubt of the answer.

Furthermore, your arguments are fundamentally fatuous. Profiling for suspicious activity is not the same as profiling based solely on race. Since you suggest we ban all Arabs from flying, why don't you simultaneously suggest we ban all white people from renting Ryder trucks? Isn't that just threat recognition? Or are you not making that suggestion because you don't want to have YOUR liberties infringed upon? Terrorists can attack everything that makes this country great from the outside -- but it's people like you who are destroying this country from the inside.

It's rational discourse such as this which discredits anything you have to say on the matter. Just keep on making up names until bedtime or your mother calls...

About 7,000 people sure would have liked to have a "Racist Pig" on duty at BOS, EWR, or IAD on 9-11. But they can't speak up any longer...

Furthermore, se94583, the answers you self-righteously provide to your "how many airliners have been hijacked by whites etc." questions aren't even correct. For instance, the hijacking and subsequent crash of the PSA airliner in the late 1980s was carried out by one David Burke. Hmmm...doesn't sound too Arab to me.

And I am absolutely infuriated and disgusted that you would have the PRESUMPTION to assert that you speak for the victims of this tragedy and their families. I lost a colleague and a friend lost her husband. My friend was just telling me that her husband would have been appalled by the racism and jingoism going on in their name. So kindly, either speak for yourself or shut your trap. No one wants to hear it any more.

If one armed people had done these attacks or blind people, should we use that information to help us identify future similar attackers. I have seen people here critisize taking a closer look at a group of people that fit the profile of the attackers in one way. Would it not make sense to look at any and all groups which fit the profile of the attackers in order to try and prevent future attacks?

In a perfect world this would not be necessary as no one would drive planes with innocent people on them into buildings with innocent people in them. In the world we live in I think that for my safety, for the safety of my family, for the safety of my community and country we should look for charitoristics of the attackers and then profile passengers which meet credible charectoristics of the attackers.

Profiling has nothing to do the aspects of groups of people other than the aspects of the particular group that you are looking for. If we find individuals that meet substancial aspects of the attacker group then it is sure prudent to take a closer look at that person.

If I travel like, look like, act like, sing like, smell like, etc. the attacker group it may be wise to look me over a little closer because statistically I am more likely to be part of the attacker group.

Possibly some of the more high minded members of our forum may have some better security ideas to put forward, rather than simply name call to other who have ideas abeit imperfect, as is our world.

Please excuse my spelling as I am generally a very stupid person.

[This message has been edited by dallasflyer (edited 09-25-2001).]

se94583,

It almost seems a waste of time to discuss any intellectual issues with you. So let's just follow through with your thought process.

You seem to have forgotton that the Shintoists were the ones who propelled Japan to invade China and other Asian countries, committed such brutal atrocities in an Asian Holocaust that appalled even the Nazis, and also attacked Pearl Harbor. Towards the end of the war, the Japanese airmen became kamakazi fighters considered by their countrymen as heros making an ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Just because they did not have 757 or 767 in those days doesn't mean they wouldn't have done it.

And yet we don't racial profile the Japanese people. Although we erroneously interred the Japanese Americans, our government has issued formal apologies and retributions. We know it was wrong to inter the Japanese Americans, why do we think it's acceptable to racial profile, issue separate ID cards, etc. against the Arab Americans or Moslem Americans?

You are using the attack of WTC as the only measure to determine whether we conduct profiling on a specific race or ethnic group. Actually there have been other horrendous crimes committed against humanity. The only difference now is that this particular one was committed against the Americans and we saw it on live TV.

DNA mapping has proved without a doubt that we are all so genetically close that to condemn one particular race or ethnic group is to condemn ourselves as well. We must identify and hunt down the criminals amongst us, but it cannot be done by pure racial profiling.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChaseTheMiles:

You seem to have forgotton that the Shintoists ...Towards the end of the war, the Japanese airmen became kamakazi fighters considered by their countrymen as heros making an ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Not at all. Even the kamikazees targeted military installations and other legitimate targets of war. Although a surprise attack, same for Pearl Harbor. Its comparing apples with oranges: never before in US history have we faced an enemy who thinks nothing about killing innocents and actually avoids military targets in lieu of spreading terror.

And yet we don't racial profile the Japanese people. What were the internment camps?

During WWII, German-Americans were "profiled" (in the sense of the word we're using today) as well during WWII. But once again, the perceived threat was espionage or sabotage of military/industrial targets-- not slaughter of civilians.

apologies and retributions. I assume you mean "reparations", and much of that had to do with property seized during the war. Many Japanese-Americans lost their businesses, homes, and savings. They should have been compensated.

why do we think it's acceptable to racial profile, issue separate ID cards, etc. against the Arab Americans or Moslem Americans? Last poll says a significant number of Americans think otherwise. Bet you good money that if a nuclear attack ever happens on US soil, that percentage will grow geometrically.

What you're forgetting is that the seperate ID card idea (which will never happen IMHO)is for foreign nationals/aliens, who do not receive the full benefit of the Constitution to begin with. They are guests, and as such, can be sent packing.

You are using the attack of WTC as the only measure to determine whether we conduct profiling on a specific race or ethnic group. Incorrect. There is one particular group right now who is determined, organized, and funded to the extent that it possesses the ability to hurt us. Period. If the IRA suddenly developed a hard-on against the US and launched a similar terror attack, I'd EXPECT the Shamuses, Erins and Seans to be profiled as well.

And let's really call a spade a spade: after Mcveigh, mainstream America DENOUNCED him, and all who believed as he did. But where are the denouncements in the American muslim community? Just per forma weak condolences and more spirited denouncements of anti-muslim rage. At the day of rememberance, the Iman didn't even unquivocably denounce the terrorists.

Actually there have been other horrendous crimes committed against humanity. Long ago. We don't "profile" Germans anymore, because their animosity towards us and the evil ideology egging them on has dissapated. In addition, when in American history has a comprable event occurred, committed by sleeper agents hiding in our country?

but it cannot be done by pure racial profiling. Never said pure racial profiling. But its a factor, and its absurd to pretend otherwise. do you REALLY think that a group of Arab men travelling together should receive the same scrutiny as a group of Japanese businessmen?

The problem with this discussion is that the term "profiling" is a loaded term in the US: it invokes visions of black men driving Mercedes being pulled over for DWB, etc. As such, it has caused a "knee jerk" reaction from several on this board without actual consideration of the substance of what was being discussed, but then again, the same folks would probably protest the singing of "White Christmas" for its alleged racist overtones.

RIP fellow San Ramonian:

Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California, was a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company, and the father of three. He made four calls to his wife, Deena, from the plane. Deena Burnett said that her husband told her that one passenger had been stabbed and that "a group of us are going to do something." He also told her that the people on board knew about the attack on the World Trade Center, apparently through other phone calls. He was the father to 5 year old twin girls and a three year old.



[This message has been edited by se94583 (edited 09-25-2001).]