That's the "image" I would choose; unfortunately, the other one mentioned has become too commonplace.

I had been wondering what the general response was out on the West Coast. My guess is that what these observations can largely be explained by proximity.

If/when California ets hit by the Big One (earthquake), perhaps a similar fraction of east coasters will be equally callous.

Be careful. In many cases previous to the intifada houses were bulldozed because the land was not owned by the people living on it, nor did they have permission to live on it. South Africa under Aparteid got a lot of flack for this. These days bulldozings happen ten times more than in the aparteid days!

So the Israeli's are responsible for the attacks on WTC and The Pentagon??

Benoit-

Watch it... Uninformed inflamatory rhetoric is extremely dangerous. Not to mention extraordinarily insensitive in this time of immensive world-wide tension and American pain.

Maybe not dispicable but significant, is the image of the people jumping from the windows 100 stories up, then the lone shoe sitting in the rubble. Imagining the horror of a moment where a human chooses one horrific death over another. Perhaps one of the same people who took a moment to call home and leave an I love you message on an answering machine.
I agree with those of you who challenge the effectiveness of the media's playing those few clips of celebration. Those people can not be the majority. The press is doing an great job with coverage but it seems as though they don't recognize their power in determining the mood and beliefs our our nation when they deliberately try to insitgate feelings of anger and desire for revenge towards entire nations. We don't need blanket anger towards nations. We need patience until we find out which small group of individuals are responsible for this.
The children dancing in that news clip do not understand the scope of this act any more than we did at their age. It might as well be a sporting event to them. They are probably being told that it represents freedom and an end to their poverty or whatever suffering is in their lives. I can't even muster anger towards them, only pity.

I have waited a few days before posting anything anywhere about the tragedy that happened. To all the victims and their families, their friends, their colleagues - I send my sincerest and deepest condolences.

There is nothing more that I can add to express any more sorrow than has already been said countless times, far more eloquently than I can muster.

However, I will say this - no amount of anger or wrath or racial hatred is going to prevent this from happening again. No amount of killing or bloodshed or violence is going to stop more destruction. You do not fight fire with fire... you fight fire with water. This is a time for cool heads to prevail, not for fiery blood.

I am not advocating peace - action *must* be taken - and rest assured that Australia, along with the rest of the free world, will stand united alongside America to hunt down and bring these evil *******s to justice. I would even pull the trigger myself, if I could.

However, I will *not* pull the trigger on the innocent people who happen to have the same skin colour as the perceived perpertrators.

I will *not* forget that it is racial intolerance that has caused these problems in the first place.

I will *not* explode my wrath on those whom I want to be guilty, but save it for those who ARE guilty.

I will *not* forget the lessons of the past, and therefore be condemned to repeat them.

America has produced some of the greatest leaders the world has known - and one of the greatest, Martin Luther King summed up the lesson perfectly - "I have a dream... a dream that my four children will live in a world where they are judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"

The American or Australian or British or European citizen, who happens to be of middle eastern descent, is *not* your enemy. The muslim colleague that you worked with, and joked with last week is *not* your enemy. The children who attend the local islamic school in your community is *not* your enemy.

Your enemy are those who have perpetrated this foul and vicious crime, those who aid those perpetrators, and those who advocate violence and the destruction of innocents.

You did not destroy or bomb Timothy McVeigh's neighbours, and friends, or city for the terrible crime he committed. Likewise, do not villify those who happen to be muslim. Those who are guilty *must* be punished to the fullest extent, those who are innocent should not suffer - otherwise, we are just performing the same low acts that have made us suffer today.

The world became a much uglier, colder, darker, and horrible place this week, and my grief knows no bounds for what has happened.

We can either make it uglier, colder, darker and horrible, or we can do what we can as individuals, as groups, as nations, and as a world, to try and make things better.

What decision will you make?

Thank you for listening to my rant, and god bless.



[This message has been edited by 4me2no (edited 09-13-2001).]

There would be nothing more despicable than targeting Arabs and Muslims in this country, just as bad as suggesting that the Israelis are to blame somehow. Bin Laden's hate for America goes far beyond the Palestinian question. It seems like its the American way of life that is hated. Apparently, early reports suggest most of the people involved in the hijackings are Egyptian and Saudi Arabian nationals.

I agree with Paris...probably 99% of the Muslims in this country disagree with Bin Laden and the Taliban (I'm not a Muslim, but I'm speculating based on people I know and what I've seen since this tragedy). What the Taliban believe in seems to bear little resemblence to the rest of Islam... Like I said on another thread: comparing Bin Laden to mainstream American Muslims is like comparing David Koresh to mainstream American Christians. It's very sad when I hear that Americans are vandalizing mosques, harassing Arab students, etc. It doesn't make any sense.

4me2no,

Thanks for a very well-written message. I also agree that although we are shouting "revenge", we should exact justice only after identifying the real criminals behind this heinous crime. Even if Afghanistan is found to have been in cooperation with the criminals, I do not agree with bombing Kabul, as some posters have suggested.

We are Americans, we need to remember the people of Afghanistan have also suffered under the Taliban regime. Our indiscriminate bombing of Kabul or nuking Afghanistan will only add to the suffering there, and not necessarily harm the real criminals. All of us will have bloood on our hands, making us no better than the criminals themselves.

As you pointed out, Timothy McVeigh was tried and executed, and we are not like some other governments that will go bulldoze the McVeigh family home or arrest McVeigh relatives just because they are from the same family. Hatred and revenge will only breed more hatred and revenge.

Yes, and I watched a press release having the crown prince of Saudi Arabia state his support for the US, distancing themself from Bin Laden, and also promising to pump extra oil if necessary to keep supplies at current levels.

I think almost all of the world, be them of any nationality, think this was a despicable crime. Those responsible should pay; those that look those responsible should not.

The question of how expansive the retaliation should be is difficult partly because there is only a grey area dividing those who are "responsible" and those who are not. The ones most directly responsible are the ones who hijacked the planes; obviously no retribution can be carried out on them since they're dead. Next level is the group of people, the ground support, architects, and financiers of the plan who now hide; I think international opinion would not be very controversial on how to deal with them. Next level out might be those who were not involved with this attack but are currently harboring plans to carry out similar attacks in the future, and this level out is probably where the controversy begins: is it moral to kill those who have not done anything wrong, yet? How, precisely, is "harboring plans" defined, and how much proof is needed to determine this?

Lowering the threshold of accountability might reduce the probability of future attack. At the same time, the larger the net cast, the more difficult and questionable the search, and thus the greater the potential for radicalization of currently law-abiding people (the vast majority, it should be noted).

Both those who urge all-out war and those taking the idealistic but naive position that we should "turn the other cheek" seem to me to be oversimplifying a very difficult problem. But I am happy to admit that I have no idea what the proper response is. If anything, I would urge people to consider reducing the certainty of whatever opinion you have, especially right now, when the general public has really no knowledge of detailed facts of the web of people responsible.

If the solution to terrorism were obvious, we would've done it long before now.

Benoit - Rich Saudi young man goes to Afghanistan to fight against Russians, finances the groups that evolve into the Taliban. Returns to Saudia after Russians leave, becomes royally p/o'd that US troops are still on holy ground and starts to take actions against ruling Saud family, leading to freezing of assets in Saudia and expulsion. Goes back to Afghanistan and continues, escalating into attacks on civilians. (CNN's web site has a decent summary on Bin-Laden this morning).

1. What's the connection to Israel and the Palestinians?
2. Even if by some remote thread of logic you do make a connection, where is the basis for the kind of crappy post you made?
3. Within your post there is so much nonsense I don't know where to start. Maybe with the fact that some of the houses were built w/o permits, maybe some of them were used as sniper posts? Maybe with the fact that they are not replaced by roads or settlements, but left as they were?

Once you start looking for reasons to "understand" terrorism you can't stop. There is always going to be someone out there that's not happy with the way things are and feel they have to change the system by violence. Reasons are not needed.

Bin Laden, millionaire with a dangerous grudge

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/bin...ile/index.html

Posted earlier at:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../002933-8.html

[b]raffy[\b], I agree completely with you. As the towers were burning and disintegrating before our very eyes on Tuesday, vendors were still selling cheap wallets, belts and CDs as sirens wailed around them. I could not believe it. One vendor (on 6th Ave, with a clear view of the WTC) tried to shove a sales flier in my hand and I turned to her and said, "You have GOT to be kidding, don't you know what is happening?!" Then on a corner further south as the second tower exploded were three women, smiling and laughing, discussing one's sunglasses, where she had bought them, debating UV aspects of them and so on ... while most people around them were in tears and shock, screaming that the tower had gone .... I don't see how these women could have not known what was going on even if tourists. How oblivious and self-centered can someone be? I did see a few people shopping that day and wondered how they could do this. I even felt guilty taking my cat to the vet yesterday, how could I be thinking of this when so many have died, and even for eating something and for being hungry, when so many don't know where their loved ones are and so many will never be able to eat again, but then I also tried to give blood right after. Life goes on, I guess, even if we are all numb with pain. But it IS hard to comprehend how people could act so cavalierly.