Clueless people?
 

When I started flying regularly about 10 years ago, I knew next to nothing about frequest traveler's programs. My travel agent had to talk me into joining the program for the airline I was using. Of hotels, I knew nothing. I would pick a place that was cheap and that was it.

As late as 2003, I still pooh-poohed hotel plans, and my big deal was scrounging enough miles for a trip to Europe.

And then, of course, I stumbled onto Flyertalk. The rest is history, as they say. :)

But now, with weekly travel, I still run into a surprisingly large number of people who travel on a fairly regular basis, and who still either have no clue or no interest in frequent traveler programs. I talk to them, and their eyes sort of glaze over.

Either that, or they have these wild expectations about buying chewing gum with a credit card and jetting off to Tahiti (in First Class, of course).

How do you handle that? Or do you just go about your business? Do you think that if we wised up everybody this would all fall apart?

Thoughts?

I am as amazed as you are. I also am continually trying to get people to use no annual fee credit cards that get you 5% off of gas (15 cents/gallon!) and groceries. Most people figure their must be a catch so they don't bother. I think its the same attitude with FF programs. I will never understand.

I've never been a missionary* and don't plan to start here. What other folks don't know ain't my problem, unless I care personally about them and their well-being. (Fortunately, my GF was into FF programs, though not quite as insanely as I am, before we met.) For that matter, the fewer people who don't get it in this regard, the better for the rest of us!
___________________________________
*I've been accused of a missionary attitude toward things Macintosh, and plead guilty on occasion. Nothing wrong with the position, either. :)

Your question, basically, is Why don't people act in their own best interest when it would be so easy to do so? To put it mildly, there is no easy answer, and FF programs are certainly not the only place we can observe this "phenomenon." But to hazard a guess: It doesn't take much knowledge to know that participating in FF programs is a no-brainer, but if you don't have that knowledge - or if you believe that obtaining that knowledge is costly and/or difficult - then you may very well be dissuaded from arriving at the "proper" conclusion. Seriously, though, would it be better if everyone joined these programs? I think not. At the very least, it would create even greater liabilities for airlines, hotels because of unused miles; at worst, it would decrese the availability of already scarce awards... I say let sleeping dogs lie... ;)

its a good thing they exist! that way all the awards are here for us!

but yeah, I run into people who seemed to have stopped thinking about this stuff from the days when you could get a flight for 25,000 miles by just walking up to the gate and getting on a plane. But most of them never reached that amount and ended up with say, one or two flights worth about 7,000 miles total and then they gave up. It's usually the same set of people you have as neighbors who still have that ugly 70s brown panneling in their homes and have eightees hair doos.

Sure, the orange shag rug is kinda cool in a retro way, man, but no, TWA shuut down a long time ago so you cannot combine your old miles from that airline with this stupid certificate you got in the mail from Dis-in-nee world offering 4 free flights if you call in and give them your visa number!

agahgah

;)MM

There are some Flyertalkers that rank among the clueless too. :eek:

I've met a few that don't have mileage earning, or hotel credit cards. :eek:

They should know better. ;)

I know several clueless people. They all tell me that it's too much trouble.

I can't imagine how it can be that much trouble. Afterall, how hard is it to just enter your FF # when making a reservation and/or checking in. It's not like every program is like Choice Hotels where it can be a hit or miss getting your points/miles.

Relative to

• people who don't contribute to a retirement plan—and thus their employer contributions and match
• people who don't carry health insurance—by choice
• people carry credit card balances—in excess of 10% of their income

all of whom I seem to meet distressingly often, I am not too concerned about people who forego a few thousand FF miles, although I'll bring up the subject. Though I suppose at a certain scale, an FT intervention might be in order. :)

I used to try to explain it (hey, there's a referral to nab, right? :p ). Now I just let it go. It's like polymer science; they either get it or they don't.

There are a couple of ppl who know of my hobby (addiction) and actually like to poke fun of it. Then I think of the exec lounges they'll never see, the miles devaluations they'll never experience, and the LH dragons they will never meet. And all is good. :cool:

These "clueless" people generally come in 3 forms. The first is the poor, who will never will accumulate enough miles through a kickback program to get a decent air award. The benefit to them is insignificant, so it's not worth their time. The second is middle class people, who don't feel it's worth their time to study the airline programs to get air awards. If they aren't going to get a free ticket with a paid ticket it's too much trouble. The third is the rich. It makes no sense to read things so they can get back 1 to 5% of their purchase in the form of an air award. Usually, two hours or less of work pays for any airline ticket they want. These people are not really clueless. They made a conscious a decision that it's not worth their time to deal with airline schemes.

I really think that the airline mileage credit card is for EVERYONE...especially the STARWOOD AMEX. I do not think any "schemes" are part of the scenario.l

I resemble that remark if that's your definition of clueless. The best justification for mileage earning credit cards is the bonus miles for signing up. At regular redemption rates, it makes no sense for almost anybody to use a mileage earning card rather than cashback - unless you fly premium class awards. See my treatise :) on the subject here (at post #3).

It's clueless not to use some kind of rewards card. Whether it should be a mileage earning one is a completely different question.

This, of course, implies that you have the credit score and financial discipline it requires to properly use a mileage card. These cards carry a far higher interest rate than most others, and thus should ONLY be used if you're going to pay your balance off each month.

some people either don't qualify for the cards, or (wisely) understand they don't have the financial discipline to pay off their cards in full each month.

that's probably the minority of FTers, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

Some people are "clueless" about such matters because there is some "cost" in time or resource to get "clued in" on these programs and the real value they can provide. (There is even more "cost" involved in doing a comparison of relative value.)

I've met a lot of frequent flyers who don't really care about these programs since it's more a residual of their work travels than their interest. That or they stick with one program completely clueless about the better options out there.

What is even more intriguing to me are people who “get it” for airlines, but ignore the hotel programs, even if they spend scores of nights each year at high end chains. Almost everyboy I come across who travels frequently is involved with the airline programs, but only a minority participate in a hotel scheme.

ahh, I was like that for a while but now I know of the hilton and SPG gigs I do regularly use.

The reasons why people disregard some things may go further than some here are willing to comprehend. Think about it this way, for all you online photo enthusiasts out there:

There are a several places to share your photos you can put online. Iuse my Canon Elph to load them onto Shutterfly, which enables me to send a link to people to look at and possibly order photos from.

Shutterfly is I think the ONLY such service that DOES NOT require YOU the viewer to JOIN UP in order to view all my pictures!

Snap Fish does, Ofoto does, and so do many others.

Ok, so some junkies do join them all and even get freebies and points to do this. Many of you have seenthe MyPoints Snap Fish thing and have taken advantage of it on several occasions.

BUT...
and this is a big one for many people out there:

HOW MANY ACCOUNTS DO YOU HAVE OR WANT IN YOUR LIFE?
does it not get overwhelming to any of us?

YES!

I actually am STILL in the process of trying to streamline my many accounts in life and NO, you cannot have the same password for each one of them! Dont let anyone fool you with that come back!

Example: Continental Airlines wanted a 4 digit password and Continental Vactions site wanted a 6 digit one. There ya go. Some places require letters or other password combinations! It is a lot of stuff to handle.

i have an excel sheet with everything on it. But recently I got so overwhelmed myself, this sheet became a printout with post it notes stuck to it and new accounts or old accounts strewen about all over it. Then we moved and it is in a box that will soon be opened up and hopefully organized in my office to be in a room not yet painted.

And you want ME to join YET ANOTHER service or program?

NOPE!

Now, add a flood in your home town (let's say I llived in New Orleans) and that is just NOt a good thing at all.

hey, my dad was killed on 9/11/01. Do you know how badly it sucked to have to deal with AOL to get into his email and change it over to my mom's ability to read it?

that was harder to deal with than some of the funeral things we did!

wow.

Some people--self included--find it sometimes too hard to open yet another THING in their already busy life.

I gotta go to the bank now, so see you in a while. Oh, which card am I using and what's the pin? And did the bank just email me saying they are changing their systems and got bought out so I gotta choose another one anyway?

;)MM

I have a disciple
 

Y’know, I never proselytize. But generally, when I gently mention that someone is leaving a lot of points/miles on the table by not (fill in the blank) I am met with the blank stare of indifference.

Last night I went to a Dodger games with a friend who (much to my surprise) gloomed onto Rewards Network with a passion, and has hit about seven Idineriers in two weeks. I am so proud (but I guess the days of, "why don't you give me the cash and I'll put it on my card" are over).

I've gotten quite a few of my friends hooked on to frequent flyer programs since I started school last year. They all thought I was crazy when I went on a mileage run a month into the school year (why would you spend $200 to go to Los Angeles and just get on a plane right back...). Now, after seeing the fact that I'm up in First Class quite a bit (upgrade percentage on ATL-MHT and CVG-MHT routes is very high, even for Silvers) and that I've used my miles to take me to places like the NCAA tournament (which would have cost $800 to go to with purchasing a flight), they understand and have me help them out with all their travel stuff. Of course, they still think it's a little crazy that I do mileage runs and the sort, but I just tell them I have to do it to get my upgrades (they don't really get elite status at all...most of them fly up and down the East Coast about 5 times a year...not really enough to get close to even Silver).

While the statement about not having the same password is partially true, you can have the same password for different accounts being the same. I use a 4 digit password that is the same for all of my accounts that need a 4 digit password. If the account needs a 5 digit password, then I use the same 5 digit one for all the similar accounts. If the account needs an alphanumeric password, I try to use the same one for all similar accounts.

This way, I only have 3 or 4 passwords to remember - not 20 or 30 different ones. If I try to enter a 4 digit password, and it says it's wrong and must be 5 digits, I know to use the other one. (Not try to remember what password goes to which account.) I try to do the same with the account names - also less things to remember.

I know that I'm taking a chance, being that if someone found out my password they would have the password for many accounts. But is this any less safe than having an Excel worksheet and Post-It Notes lying around with this same information?

Three Words
 

Norton Password Manager

Yes, that was me.

Everybody has heard of Airline miles, but surprisingly few have heard of Hotel Reward programs.

On my first big award flight (wife & I to Europe), we spent some points in the Hilton in Paris. As several days went by, all for free, a light bulb @:-) went on: "Hey! This is all right!"

Currently, I continue to gather airline miles (I fly every week on NW, am Gold-heading-for-Platinum), but where I get really sweaty is getting hotel points. I've done the Paris Hilton. I've done the Cavalieri. I transferred a bunch of Marriott points into AA miles, and they're going right into Hilton at 2 for 1. I'm currently booking a couple of weeks in Europe this Spring, all for free!

Much more bang for the buck, IMO.

And, of course, talking with the unenlightened about it ... they vaguely comprehend airline miles, but free rooms ... "you mean like at the Motel 6 in Peoria? Who cares about that?" ... might as well talk to a brick wall.

Clueless people, I can expect and tolerate. Not everyone flies, or cares about freebies, getting upgrades. Ignorant people, that I can't stand. People who flew for business who refused to even sign up. And then some have to argue with me that ff programs are scams.

The less of us out there, the better chance for my upgrades. :)

Still I dissagree.

First, let's not worry about security because unlike say, Microsoft or some bank, I do not necessarily feel as though I am targeted for some sort of hacking efforts online. I may be, but for now, the security of the world of passwords and people finding out about them is not my beaf here.

I have accounts with all the airlines. I know AA uses a 6 digit pw and it is similar to ones where a 4 digit one is used.

my ebay asked me to make a new one, and it is no longer related to the above, where it once was. I have two banks who do the same thing yearly and now I have had to make up entirely new things. they are all things I can remember but sometimes, you just have to scratch the head and think!

Verzion and MCI have different requirements, two --no, make that 3 web sites I manage have ones that require THEIR own password, and so does a bank account I have in Holland. I had no choice in what they picked for me and you cannot change them in my case.

a few organizations I am a member of have all letters, and then there are all the passwords my family members had used for their own miles gigs that I now manage for them. Things change, girlfriends (who you named a password after) change, rules change, and memory is filled with other stuff.

I use Northwest, United and AA right now and so if I fly a partner like Delta, I will put the miles on NWA. For this reason, I may FORGET (at least temporaily) the password to my Delta account and so I have to look it up.

We can only fit so much info on this subject into our heads!

My workplace has TWO passwords to get into its intranet and timehseet links and they are backwards but hey, they pay the bills.

i can go on and on.

point is: the person who posted Norton Password Manager has possibly just awakend me to something I have indeed been seeking for a long long time.
This, if it really does what I want it to, will be something I will spend money on! I can then know only one password and let the rest live online where I can get them whether I be at the office where a post it note has an encripted MM only code on it for my office stuff, or in Tahiti on vacation in some internet cafe checking to see if my mortgage company got the check I sent it right before take off!

So thanks to that person.
Clueless people who blow off big business perks (as said in other posts) however, SHOULD start cluttering their feable minds with that which gives them free first class travel! I do agree that idiots are idiots. I am not one, but I am saying there may be reason why some people do not join things.

;)MM

I have known a couple of clueless ones but not too many. My sister who had countless airline award tickets finally admits to be clueless about hotel programs until we vacation together. My family free lodging from hotel points while her family paid for the rooms.

Just recently I had to turn down an upgrade because I was traveling with my young son. The gentleman next to me mentioned that he had never sits in the first class because of the cost. He wants to know why I was offered a seat in the first class. By the end of the flight, he had a OnePass Application in his hand. He flies once a week.

people with stray miles, I just found out, can donate them to hurricane victoms! there's a thread on that in this forum. cool stuff I just learned of!

:)MM

Maybe you can enlighten us on how you are avoiding the transfer fee from putting AA miles into the Hilton.

OK, OK -- go ahead and pick nits! :)

Yeah, there's a $25 fee for the AA-> HH transfer -- usually. Some have reported that they will still do it for free if you're willing to accept the paperwork and delays.

But compared to $4000-$5000 worth of hotel rooms, the twenty-five bucks is lost in the noise.

Maybe because the hotel programs suck, compared to the airline programs. I've got a few hotel cards, but I generally don't bother with them, for the following reasons:

1. As a leisure flyer who doesn't travel on business, it's just not possible to accumulate 20+ visits a year, which are necessary for any real perks. OTOH, it's pretty easy for me to score some sort of status with the airlines. I'm currently 1K with United, although I got it using the double miles promo at the end of last year (my actual BIS miles last year were 61K). Next year I should be either PremEx or 1K again (if they have another promo).

2. It's much easier to stick with one airline than it is to stick with one hotel chain.

3. I have *wood Gold (comped from Amex Plat), but it's about as worthless as a Southwest upgrade.

4. A hotel upgrade simply isn't worth as much as an airline upgrade! I don't spend much time in my room, other than sleeping, so a suite just isn't all that important. What's most important is a convenient location, a clean room, a hot shower, and a comfortable bed. The few perks that are important to me are free internet, free local calls, and free breakfast. And I'm more likely to get these at the LOW-COST chains! The premium product hotels are far more likely to soak me for these (just the opposite of the airlines). OTOH, due to the confining space of an airplane, the larger seat one gets with an upgrade is VERY IMPORTANT! Also, the better food and service, and free booze are more important when you're a captive audience.

5. I reserve most of my hotel rooms on Priceline. And hotel rooms there are often MUCH CHEAPER, frequently as little as 40% of even the cheapest web price! OTOH, airline tickets on Priceline aren't that much cheaper than I can find by shopping around and timing my flights when prices are low. And again, with dubious hotel perks, I'm much more willing to give them up in return for a huge Priceline discount!

Amen! :D

Yes and no.

Your situation is a bit different from most here, since it seems that 100% of your travel is leisure.

And most of us here would not redeem hotel miles for, say, a Hampton Inn in Peoria.

But just like with airline miles, where the big target is premium-class seating overseas, the big payoff for hotel points is high-end properties overseas. Think the Renaissance Chancery or Maarriott County Hall in London, the Hilton Arc de Triumphe in Paris, the Cavalieri in Rome. These places provide an extremely pampering experience and typically cost several hundred dollars/night. Plus, having a very nice place to stay for several days or a week is worth a lot to me, as opposed to 6 or 8 hours in an aluminum tube.

Don't get me wrong, I've done the transatlantic First Class thing several times already, and am planning another one soon. But it's all over in a few hours, whereas the hotel is yours for days.

And, if you have top-tier status (which is another Holy Grail for us), the additional perks could easily represent an additional hundred bucks or so a day.

Each of us has their own "sweet spot", but for me hotel points is where it's at. Regarding the prices (vis-a-vis Priceline), I'm typically in a given place for a long time, and I negotiate a rate not much more that PL -- and I get the premium goodies, too, along with the overseas property access.

YMMV.

Then enlighten us with specifics with how transfering from a hotel program into an airline program into a hotel program make any sense. Conversions from one program to another tend to lessen the value of the points. Additional transfers devalue the original points further.

This was certainly me when I was working and traveling regularly. Now I am retired and all the miles I earned actually flying are gone. This is when you get resourceful. I now have far more miles than when I earned them by flying. Unfortunately I no longer have elite status, but this does not matter much as I use my miles for premium international travel once or twice a year. The best news is I now have time to use all those miles

Marriott Travel package: X points for 7 nights in a Marriott property, plus additional points to miles.

In my case, I paid an additional 120,000 points and got 120,000 AA miles. Because they were running a 20% bonus, I got 144,000 AA miles out of the deal. I had a few odd AA miles, and it totalled up to 150,000 AA miles.

They are transferred into Hilton @ 2 for 1, so 150,000 AA miles yields 300,000 Hilton Honors points.

@:-) Got it? :p

OMG! I could be clueless! :cool:

I qualify on your guidelines, but don't have mileage card. Spend $4000 - $6000 a month. :confused:

Am I clueless? (Be gentle!!!) :eek:
Should I be using a mileage card? :p

Yes. Putting that spending on the Starwood Amex woudl net you enough miles for a free business class to ticket every year for a $30 anual fee.

Well, maybe I don't get it, but for my travel patterns loyalty to a hotel chain does not make sense.

I have enough hotel nights every year to make a difference, but lets look at the costs. I am also a strong believer in Priceline (and hotwire).
My average cost for a 4 star PL room: $65
My average cost for a 3 star PL room: $40
(Until this month I also got 1125 to 1662 Asia Miles per PL night through EAP. Now down to 3% rebate to ebates.com)

I have a hard time believing one can negotiate points earning rates like these with the hotels.

I have SPG points (and had a few Priority Club Points) as a backup when PL does not work...but they are generally they are not needed.

This applies internationally as well. I will stay at the Renaissance Brussels for $60/night instead of 199 EUR/night (lowest price showing on their website).

Say I could somewhere/somehow half this rate. 100 Eur = aprox $140 = $80 more than I paid per night. So the points/status would be worth that?

i wish :D ^

I'm doing my best to work on my father. He flies at least two flights on United a year and never earns miles, even though he has a USAirways account with a number he doesn't know. I called US to get the number for him and they had his old office address on the account and they moved last century! He never signs up for hotel programs and is missing out on points and miles. He also writes me emails saying "I'm going to xxx next week, please get me the exit row".

..... I respect the results of your "research" too. :D

Hotel programs are far more lucrative, when done right, than most airline programs -- and this is especially true if you can sleep/work in coach. I got hooked to hotel programs when I discovered that spending sub-320 USD to get 600+ dollars of award hotel nights was too easy. :) (I was even thinking of hiring a homeless guy in DC to stay in hotels around the area for me as long as he gave me the award certificates. Unfortunately, a more trustworthy neighborhood homeless fellow could not be found that month.)

A very intelligent reply! Gives me another perspective. Proves what's been said here many times when a newbie asks what program is best...it varies with the individual!

Yes, for me I too would like to achieve the Holy Grail of Diamond Status. However, it's just not gonna happen! I'm not gonna make 20+ visits a year.

But no, I wouldn't waste my points on a stay at a Hampton Inn in Peoria. But then, *wood charges substantially more points for their resort in Port Douglas, Queensland, so no hot deals here!

I tried to work with *wood. Booked SIN at their internet rate, so I could get an upgrade. Sorry, "nothing available." Meanwhile, I was stuck in a hotel that was a bit off the beaten path....and no upgrade! Next time, I go for the location! Fool me once, shame on me....fool me twice, shame on me!!!

I agree with the 6-8 hours in a tube, although it is actually more like 15 hours in a tube to Australia. The 15 hours confined in a tube (about half are awake) are substantially more important than 4-6 awake hours in a hotel. And I can leave the hotel if I don't like the food or service. Can't do the same with the airplane.

With UA I get 6 SWU's a year, 8 CR-! Regional upgrades, and 4 500 mile upgrades for every 10K miles I fly. That, plus a few miles, just about guarantees that I'll never see the Economy cabin.