You all have every right to think and express your elitist attitudes. Others have every right to ignore them. In fact I ignored such attitudes just last week. My nine year old has status with USAir and just upgraded herself and her nine year old friend when she went to Disney World last week. Her friend's parents choose to sit in the back because the father is uncomfortable with flying and likes to sit over the wing. I know my daughter, and I assume she behaved, but I don't know for sure that she didn't do something to annoy the other passengers. If she did, I'm sorry, I wish it wouldn't have happened, but the prospect of it didn't stop me from letting her have fun with the idea of being upgraded. USair had no problem giving them the upgrade, so I assume that they either didn't see an issue or they aren't allowed to prohibit it under the rules or maybe the law.

Since some of you don't have kids, you can probably be excused for not knowing much about it. But you post as if you do know. Even a fantastic flyers can have a bad day. That applies to babies, kids, and adults. And sometimes it may seem that a parent isn't trying to quiet a baby or child when they actually are. The parents know how their kids react to things, and sometimes the best way to stop bad behavior is simply to ignore it. Paying attention may be just what the child is angling for.

dhacker,

I am afraid you mistake my stab at humor. I can understand both why one would bring a child into coach/business/first, and exactly why one sitting in coach/business/first might not enjoy said experience (or with any other individual exhibiting behaviors generally defined as imposing).

Do I have any children? No. But I have enough close friends who do, and I find myself in situations whith their children often enought to realize that you are dealing with individuals, no matter how old or young, who will sometimes act on their own volition.

So what's the answer? Like everything else in life, whether love, work, amusement, education or basic socialization, the only thing one can count on is that situations will arise where one's patiences are tried.

Its how one reacts that is relevant, as that manifestation is what ultimately determines the final experience. And here again, whether on the giving end or the receiving end, you and the other individuals involved are oddy entwined, as there is no outcome except the one mutually derived.

How you evaluate, remember and are impacted by that experience is yours. Only you can make a positive out of a positive, neutral or negative experience.

As luck would have it, I am usually assigned a seat in the crying baby section wether in Coach or First. I realize that kids have just as much right as the next person. From a parents point of view.....In F, there is more room to take care of the kid and the FAs only have a handful of passengers to take care of leaving more time for "personalized service" for the kid. If the kid is too noisy, I put on the head phones and tune it out. What I can't stand is the kid who kicks the back of my seat while the parent does nothing. Regardless, kids generally aren't a problem for me and if they are, so be it. I don't let it get to me...I have more things to worry about than a cranky kid. GO KIDS!

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH SPIDER!!!!

Leave the little brats who can't behave in public at home! The other kids, who are well behaved, can come along any time. But, the real fault lies with the parents. You know your children well enough to know if they will behave or not. If not, leave them at home.

Yes, I suppose you do have a "right" to have your child sit in first class. But, you should also have the "respect" not to allow it -- just as you would probably not allow some screaming demon to disrupt a five-star restaurant, an opera or a movie. It's all about having class.

I have gotten in to some pretty heated exchanges with parents who do NOTHING to shut their screamer up. I understand the kids are going to cry sometimes. But, when he or she is wailing endlessly and the parent does nothing about it (some don't even seem to notice!), that's when I speak up.

If any airline began child-free flights, I would fly them EXCLUSIVELY. If we can't have that, I say relegate them to the back - way in the back!

The rest of BoSoxFan45's message was so reasonable that I almost couldn't bring myself to take issue with this small portion of it. However: A crying child in Y will ruin the trips of more people than the same child will if crying in F. The child crying in F will ruin the trips of people with more expensive tickets, but not as many people as in Y, and which is not the same as "ruining everyone else's trip."

I would like to fly without children, except my own perfect but untested 2-year-old, but that's not possible nor socially desirable. Sure, I would love to have the airline "do something about" crying children, but what? What can the airline do that the parent can't? Also airlines don't do much about loud, rude, and drunk adults (who should know better and who could have controlled themselves).

I first flew at age 7 (F class transcon), and I was a perfect passenger the entire flight, except for throwing up over Wyoming. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

All in all a real good reason to invest in those noise-cancelling headphones and perhaps some type of audio device (for those MD-80's). Not totally effective, perhaps, but it can dull the pain.

[This message has been edited by FoothillFlyer (edited 01-08-2001).]

Adam- What would be your cut-off age for such no kids flights. The problem with that plan is not only would it upset people, it would not totally be effective in eliminating annoying kids on flights. Allow me to elaborate: I am a firmly beleive that with kids the more they fly the better the behavior. Therefore, its totally possible to have a well travelled 4 year old who understands his/her expectations better than a 10 year old who is taking his first flight. An alternative is too have status only flights, which would eliminate some adults but also kids who dont fly enough to behave well, in any class.
I am not advocating either plan, rather pointing out that having status only flights is probably more acceptable than no kid flights.

You are mistaken if you are referring to infants or toddlers. Little kids are not used to being strapped in a seat for a long time. There is no way to know how they will behave until you board the plane with them for the first time. Even in an automobile, where the kid is strapped in a car seat, he/she can look out the window in just about any direction and see lots of different things. On a plane, even in a window seat, most of the kid's view from the seat is completely still -- 100% still if you're in the middle. That's what drives kids crazy -- being strapped down with nothing to look at. Coloring books and toys help but it's impossible to re-create the environment of the living room or playground.

Re the idea of child-free or non-elite-free flights:

Read today's paper. Now, two airlines will be disappearing soon (until recently just one). The most basic improvement, More Room on AA (appreciated by all passengers), happened only because AA is making tons of money, and they claim their yield management system will keep their revenue the same.

Restricting the availability of seats on a plane (fare inventory is not a restriction towards people) is a recipe for disaster in the airline business -- actually, most businesses. It would only work in a regulated or monopolistic environment.

JS- Allow me to clarify- I didnt mean that airlines should have elite only flights. My point was that since different kids develop differntly, both in their maturity and flight experiance, if you are going to call for any sort of segregation, which i wouldnt, that it would make more sense to do it on status rather than age. Again, that wouldnt work well at all for the airlines, but would serve the orginal purpose of eliminating noisy kids better than an age limit. Follow?

Always an interesting topic. I personally love babies and children, it's their rude, selfish parents I sometimes have problems with. Some of my worst experiences on planes involve being seated near children whose parents let them run rampant. One of my best experiences last year was being seated next to a charming, well-behaved young girl of about 9 who taught me all about Pokemon.

I'll give anyone who wants to travel with their kids the benefit of the doubt for trying their best to keep their kids in line and to make their babies comfortable. For those parents who could care less about the comfort of everyone around them, well, I can deal with it for a few hours, but I really feel sorry for their kids.

For those here who say that parents with kids, including babies, don't have the right to fly in first, I completely disagree. It's not some exclusive club. They have as much right to be there as you do. But just as I wish no one were rude on a plane, whether in first or coach, I would hope that those who travel with their children would try their best to make the cabin a pleasant as possible place for their fellow travellers.

FoothillFlyer: Those noise-cancelling headphones deaden the background noise, but not other kinds of sound. They can make other noise going on even more irritating than it normally would be. A couple of months ago, I was seated in front of a couple (of adults) who were carrying on a loud conversation for two solid hours, non-stop, in the two seats behind me. My Bose noise cancelling headphones made it worse!

I've heard different. The estachian (sp?) tube between the ear and the throat is smaller in babies and the pressurization changes may cause extreme discomfort, causing them to cry. I've heard parents should be educated on assisting their babies overcome this problem, but as a non-parent, I'm not going to give parents advice in this forum. Maybe ear plugs to hand out to any passengers bothered by the baby noise would be helpful. I've also seen parents take crying babies to stand around the back lavatory.



[This message has been edited by outoftown (edited 01-08-2001).]

It has been more than two decades since I have flown with a baby of my own and, of course, mine were always perfect. As my true memory serves, however, I think it best that persons who have not flown with babies of their own (by birth, adoption, or casual acquisition) should refrain from comment. God will indubitably get you someday for anything you unwittingly choose to say about controlling babies before you have experienced that quest.

Most babies have read very few travel guide books, don't understand the rules and, therefore, react out of pure instinct. When their little ears hurt, they scream. More power to them--it equalizes the pressure.

Try to reflect back on your behavior when you flew as a baby and judge these precious little human beings accordingly.

Actually, if the noise is that unbearable for you, it would probably be easier for you to get up and hike back to coach than to expect a mom or dad trying to cope with a miserable infant to take that trek. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For me, it boils down to basic respect for your fellow travelers, independent of class of service. My experience has been that the problems generally arise with the parents and not the children.

There was the Dad who upgraded his wife and two children, both under three, from PVD-ORD and then demanded that everyone in the cabin move around "to just help him keep his family together." Several folks were willing to help him out until he chastised us for not moving fast enough for his taste. He left his wife and one child in First and went back to coach with the other child so he could get two seats together as no one would help him post-lecture. Also, why should being childless on the flight somehow usurp your right to stay in the seat that you paid for and selected?

Also, the proud Papa who parked one of his six month old twin boys on the seat next to me, not even buckling him in, while he and his wife sat in front of me and the Nanny and the other son sat across the aisle. The FA came by and chastised me for "neglecting my child" and I pointed out that I was childless and where she might find the parents. They turned and insisted that since the seat was vacant, I should watch their son, as they were sure he would be no trouble. The FA promptly returned the child to his proud Papa in time for take off and declared the seat next to me as "unsafe due to a problem with the seat belt."

The greatest, though, was the young lady playing jacks in the aisle while everyone had to step around her and her Mother insisting that she wasn't a bother to anyone. FAs with serving carts had a different opinion. It seems the little darling could only find nine of the ten jacks. Her Mother, fortunately, found the tenth one in the dead of night (FC Suites SFO-LHR) when she stepped on it in her stocking feet on her way to the lavatory. The flight attendant asked to be mindful of the other passengers and please be quiet.

Kids will fuss and cry now and again, but it seems trivial compared to the blather most of their parents produce.

Two things:
Infants pay at leat 10% of the full fare, and
2 years and older 67%, so if these tickets are not upgraded once, at least the older kids pay more than most upgraded flyers.
If infants cry and/or have ear pressure problem, they are best breastfeeded.

However, the bulkhead seat that I saw on QF was directly behind the business class section. There was a thin board between business and economy and the baby basket hung on that board. My sister was sitting on the asile (seat G) of the bulkhead (luckily I was in First!) and there was a baby in the baby basket next to her. Surprisingly, the parents were assigned the other asile and the middle seat (seat D&E) when infact the baby basket was fixed infront of the two middle seats. So there was an extremely unhappy passenger (seat F) who had the baby basket right in front of him.

Bagold,

I am not sure what plane you flew but on the vast majority of QF 747-s after the last row of biz (row 27) there is the galley, stairs to the upper deck and several toilets which would roughly be about maybe 20-25 feet. With 2 curtains and background noise it is not easy to hear the noise coming from the coach section. I have been in row 27 several times and have had a nice and restful sleep just about always.

For those recommending the use of private/charter jets it would be advnatageous to know that few if any charter jet companies allow their clients to earn FF points http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif and the ones who do have somewhat limited award purchasing power outside that company. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Since most if not all FT-ers on this board live for miles http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif then such suggestions seem to be a bit erratic and misleading ones unless the ones who suggest it can say from personal experience that this is not so.

I have a two year old and we fly him back and forth to the US twice a year to visit family. We fly in First/Business as it is part of my ExPat package. My son is generally very very good on the plane and we are often complimented on his behavior. Part of the problem is delays. As a parent knowing when I am going to have my son on the plane I time his sleep patterns for several days before hand in order to have him exhausted when we take off. On 1 Jan we were returning to CDG from PHL on USAirways in FC. The plane was delayed three hours and in that time despite heroic efforts on my part my son fell asleep. When we took off finally he woke up in a horrible mood and screamed for the first hour of the flight. I tried every trick in the book ( I did not then and will not ever resort to putting my hand over his mouth...that would only serve to get most children I know even more freaked out!) but not much could be done. This being said my son was on a full fare FC ticket (almost $7,000) and my wife, son and I were the only passengers in the FC cabin.

Another point is that in FC/Business class on Transatlantic flights you will have your in seat video which gives you a good chance to have your child amused while you head home.

I would rather have a plane load of children all screaming than take another trip with some of my past Business class mates....when was the last time a child defecated on the drink cart/stormed the cockpit?

I wonder if folks like BoSoxFan45 (
"I try to live my life by this principle, and wish society would do the same...
I have the right to swing my hand only so long as it does not hit you.") and Droneklax (I also have a right to a quiet ride) have ever farted 60 mins after dinner was served, or maybe snored while over the Atlantic.

Those of us who don't live in hermetically-sealed bubbles do stuff that affects or infringes upon other people. And the very essence of society and relationships requires a set of tacit understandings to deal with all that.

So if you have ever farted, snored, or done anything else on a plane that infringed on others' serenity, you really haven't got much of anything to say about an infant or toddler who's doing his or her own thing.

wigstheone - I wasn't referring to your post.

My apologies.

Fear no more. A380 is coming to the rescue. If you rich SOB wants peace and quite, check in into one of the flying presidential siute, complete with private maid (FA), jacuzzi, king size bed, and most important of all, sound prof (+ noice cancelling) wall.

Ofcause you need a large nose to pay through.

Spider

The one I flew on had 3 extra rows of business after the galley and then economy. I think economy started on row 35 but cannot remember exactly.

BoSox
[quote]
A screaming child in FC gives maybe some pleasure to the parent(s), but diminishes the pleasure of others.
[quote]
A screaming child NEVER gives pleasure to the parents. TRUST me on this one. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If you read many of the stories, you find that most problems are caused not by the children, but by the breeders.

Keeping a child from going beserk is not hard - but it does require attention. This weekend when we drove the 2 hours to visit my mom, the girls fell asleep pretty quickly, but Patrick was wide awake and starting to get irritable.

So to keep Patrick quiet, we sang... and sang... and sang... and sang... and sang...

While singing the Winnie the Pooh song is fun and cute, after 90 minutes of singing, you want fly down to Disney World and detonate an atomic weapon.

However Patrick was fine for the trip, and we had a scream-free ride.

Were this trip on a plane, who's to say whether this would have worked, but have a little sympathy for the parents who are trying their best to keep the child entertained. As any parent will tell you, the term "control your child" is a joke. You can't control children, you can only hope to redirect them, and despite our best efforts, that doesn't always work.


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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

As a parent, I can almost tell which of you has kids and which of you do not from your posts. Just because you have friends that have kids does not mean you know what it is like to travel with them. As for those of you that have the elitist mentality that the children should not ride in first, you need only read the newspaper to see what some of the "adults" are doing in first class! Everybody remembers the gentleman that "relieved" himself on the drink cart, and more recently the passenger who tried to crash the BA 747 after getting into the cockpit. I would much rather hear any child crying than to have to deal with these "adults". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif As for keeping the children in coach, what happens when they are in the first row of coach and you can still hear them thru the curtain to your seat in first? Must the children then be kept back far enough so that the "snobs" cannot hear them? Let's all lighten up people and remember that we are all human beings!

My original post had to do with infants and toddlers, not older children, who are going to naturally cry or scream when their ears hurt or they are bored, hungry, etc.

After all of the postings, I realize it is really whether the parents do anything about it that is the problem, not the location of the child. On the flight I mentioned, the parents did not get up, walk the child or take any other obvious action to stop the screaming.

However, I think all of the people talking about a desire for first class to be a more pleasant experience than coach being elitist have missed the point. My expectations for a fancy $200 dinner at a candlelit white tablecloth restaurant are very different than my expectations when I eat at McDonalds. I don't believe that is elitist.

In any event, I certainly seemed to have hit a pressure point.

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AS MVP Gold, UA PremEx, HHonors Gold, Hertz Pres Circle

It is unfortunate to be called a farting elitist SOB. I didn't call anyone names.

The beef is not with the child, of course, but with the parents who refuse to even attempt to do anything. I don't have a right to go and inconvenience people in the cabin, so they don't either. Kid or not, period.

And this has nothing to do with flying, btw. Same applies for movie theatres and restaurants. It's just basic manners. I once kicked out of a movie theater a couple and their screaming two year old that they refused to take outside as he was screaming his head off. Sorry, but no one forced you to have a kid, and if you had one, you have no right to impose their behavior on anyone else.

I'd be more inclined to be friendly if the parents attempted to do something or came to me with an apology for not being successful. Then, IMHO, they have shown consideration for others.

If that makes me a farting elitist SOB then I'll sign on the dotted line.


[This message has been edited by Droneklax (edited 01-09-2001).]

A movie theater or restaurant is not comparable to an aircraft.

For starters, you can't just leave a plane in mid-flight.

A crying infant in a movie prevents others from hearing the movie, but in a plane, they don't prevent anyone from getting to their destination.

There's little point in even bringing infants to the movies, but they must fly to reach certain destinations.

Restaurants are a bit of a gray area, depending on cuisine, etc.

The elitist part comes in with the attitude that somehow 1st class passengers should be spared the crying baby while coach passengers should not.

Law Lord,
My daughters have flown, both coach and first, since they were 4 months old. We always brought the car seat for use on the plane. This way they were in a familiar spot, and thus very happy. As others have mentioned, lots of NEW toys, crayons, and snacks hepled. Most airlines offer peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for the little ones, which are always a hit. Don't forget the pacifier, and a bottle for takeoff and landing.

Enjoy !

To quote Abraham Lincoln:
We never stand so tall as when we stoop to help a child

Greytop, I agree that the problem is with the parents. I always bring my walkman and have been glad for it so many times, and as an added benefit I can also save the $4 charge for the inflight-movie headphones since I just plug my own in. Anyway, I was on CO LAX-LGA, about a 5 hour flight, last month. The plane was really packed. I should mention I was in coach, as always ...

One of the two available restrooms was broken and there was a huge line forming and growing longer, about 10 people. While I waited, and waited, in line the FA opened the door to the broken restroom and told us that the problem was that some woman in First Class had come back to *OUR* bathroom and tried to flush a diaper down, which of course clogged the toilet!!!! Then she scampered back to First Class, unaware and probably unconcerned with the problem she caused us peons. The FA had to reach into the toilet and try to get the wadded up diaper out. She said that she wanted to take the diaper up and dump it on this woman's lap. I used to think that being an FA was such a glamorous job and didn't really appreciate everything that they do until that day.

First off- I gotta side with Zipual, I dont have kids, therefore should I not put the blame on the parents who travel with their children. Someday, when I have my own little kid who travels well, then I can comment on others parenting abilities, but for now, nope. Another thing- When I was a kid traveling in F or C I got my fair share of dirty looks from Pax, who would in turn get a dirty look from me. This is all to common and reflects a general attitude that kids are smaller/ younger and so should be in coach. 10 years ago at 14 I was 6'1 176 ibs and not nearly the biggest in my class. With over 4 hours of homework nightly, my work was seemed a little more important than the businessman who was reading the wall street journal. Since I was 7 I have resented buisness travellers and to this day, even when I am a buisness flyer, I try my hardest to welcome Kids into F or C.

I used to complain about screaming babies in first class until I became a grandfather.

The problem is always the parents who either have not raised their children to have manners. As for infants who are to small, there are medications which can safely help them sleep, not experience the discomfort, and at the same time make a trip comfortable for everyone.

Some parents are just inconsiderate and themselves have no manner--as shown concretely by some of the postings in this thread: namecaliing, etc.

When I pay a full fare first class ticket which cost 2 months of my take home salary, I want to have a peaceful experience. That doesn't makeme an elitist SOB, just a hard working person who sometimes wants to enjoy himself.

When I was a small child and hyper, my grandmother would not let me disturb patrons in restaurants but instead have me eat in another room.

It's sad to see adults bicker on this board. We have other venues for this: perhaps a guest appearance on Jerry Springer!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
Nobbi

I have to admit, I'm amazed at the nerve this thread has struck. Comments like "put your hand over their mouth", "give them medication", "sit in the back of the plane", PARENTS DO SOMETHING... genuinely saddens me.

My children have flown w/ me since they were very little - not often - only when we were in the service and not for years afterwards - but when they did, I made every effort to make life easy for ME - as I expect most parents do: fly the redeye when you can - fewer people, more room to spread out - maybe they'll fall asleep; all the other "tricks" folks have described here - food, entertainment, familiar things - I've subscribed to. And sometimes in spite of everything, little Johnny gets possessed.

I suspect that the more outrageous comments are born of the bravado provided by anonymity. But I hope all of you know that none of us who travel with children embark with any intent to disregard your predictable and justifiable desire to endure little Johnny in a possessed state. I suspect if it seems that way, it's either a minority parent with no instincts at all of truly being a parent (in which case you won't be able to give them a character transplant), OR you just can't recognize the frustration they are suffering.

I call for compassion and an ability to accept with grace the trials life hands us sometimes http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I had one occasion where my husband and I upgraded to first on a trip to Hawaii. Our little one was sitting in coach with my parents. From time to time, he wanted to see mommy or daddy so we played musical chairs with my parents moving from first to coach. I brought him up with me once to calm him down with my ice cream sundae. He was acting up a little bit and before I knew it the stewardess told me a passenger had complained and that I needed to return my son. I was so mad because on the same flight, there was another couple with a lap child (little girl - 18 months) who just wailed and screamed throughout the movie and flight and yet the parents did nothing nor were they asked to leave first. I admit she was even annoying me but when my son was acting up, I didn't hesitate to move him from first as I did not want to disturb all. But he acted up once and I was kicked out. The stewardess' were then mad that we were playing musical seats in first and coach but there were no other seats that I could displace my parents while I sat with my child in coach. What would you have done? I admit, I was mad the rest of the flight and could not enjoy the benefits of first that I and my husband were entitled to.

In your case, I think the FA should have been more considerate. Albeit your child was acting up, but lots of FA's accept that. In addition, as well all know, the airlines know all to well that HI routes are ones often used for vacationers/families. If they are going to scale back their service because of the large amount of leisure travel, they should atleast ackknowledge the increased volume of familes and adjust their attitudes accordingly. All in all, the FA acted without compassion, I am assuming that no one in the cabin complained, so why ruin your flight.

Nobbi

If you have ever truly spent 2 months of your own take home pay on a first class ticket, I think you may want to consider the possibilty that you have bigger issues to resolve than kids in FC.

dhacker,
Thank you for your concern about either my financial and/or mental health well-being. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Kids in First is actually not an issue I need to resolve. Haven't really had the problem. I was just trying to share my viewpoint with other community members. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif


Unfortunately some of us have neither an expense account nor do we fly enough to get elite status/upgrades while we still enjoy being able to have a flat bed to sleep on a flight.

[This message has been edited by Nobbi (edited 01-09-2001).]

Unless they are independantly wealthy, I sincerely hope that anyone who is spending 16% of their annual salary on a FC seat is not disturbed by babies or anything else.

Nobbi, you may just be the exception that proves the rule!

The worst that can happen it when a baby (or several are screaming) are screaming or just talking very very load "baby language" - and the parents encoruage this with the "O how sweet - doesn't everybody else feel that also"-style.

Badr!
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif


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Goldlust
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