Beckles .. I raised that same question on this thread yesterday. Maybe "too close to home" for many of us?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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~ Glen ~

Right said, Fred. Like how stealing a car is worse than stealing your neighbor's newspaper.

Or how taking the shoe kit from a hotel room is worse than taking the TV.

Is there a difference between "stealing" and "cheating?"

Not to belabor a point that has already been beaten to death, but...

If a passenger is ASKED to pay the difference between coach and first class and agrees to do so, then obviously he or she is obligated to pay (because both parties agreed to this). My earlier point was that a passenger can't be "ambushed" by a charge posted to his or her account without such an agreement. I don't believe that any airline would do this, but if one did, I don't believe that the passenger would be required to pay. At a minimum, the airline has an obligation to ask the passenger to move; if the passenger refuses to do so, then all kinds of outcomes are possible, including arrest.

Bruce

'nutz ... actually I don't see much of a difference between stealing a car and your neighbors newspaper ... the law makes a differentiation, but they're both stealing plain and simple.

The shoe kit on the other hand is a bad example ... the shoe kit is a consumable and if it is used must be replaced anyway ... a better example would be the ash tray and tv ... or a towel and the tv ...

Yesterday, on AA 2767, a 737-800 that was delivered to AA on the 19th, and bound from SJC-SNA, I was sitting in 6B. A young man and his girlfriend entered the cabin and he urged her to "just sit here." She found the temptation easy to resist and just rolled her eyes.

Just as the #1 FA was closing the door, and was thus preoccupied, he slid (solo) into 4B.
Shelley (the FA) immediately detected the intrusion and asked him, politely, what his seat number was. He knew he was busted, but he asked why he could not stay. Shelley replied that is would not be fair to those who paid. On his way to the back, he muttered "there are plenty of vacancies."

He rolled the dice.....

Shelley mentioned that he would have gotten caught even had his girlfriend agreed to sit there in the beginning as she has to match actual souls on board to the manifest. She admits that many people do get away with it because many of the #1's are not as vigilant and definitely not as bold!

It was entertaining to watch it all unfold.

Let me get this straight, he left his girlfriend to sit alone while he sat upfront?

I hope she has the brains to dump the cheapskate.

They ended up flying together in coach, but had he gone undetected it appears he was willing to sit without her. I agree, it appears she could do better in her choice of men.

I don't think I have seen this mentioned about the "stealing upgrades".
I too have heard the "myths" that people were charged for their "upgrades" after the fact. Could someone tell me how they know which passenger from the coach manifest to charge? Obviously this person shouldn't be in first/business but if the flight in coach is not full, how will they know which passenger has moved up front without asking that person their name? If the plane is full, this would be easier as there would be an empty seat in coach that can be matched up to the manifest, but people do switch seats once the doors close.

I don't think I have seen this mentioned about the "stealing upgrades".
I too have heard the "myths" that people were charged for their "upgrades" after the fact. Could someone tell me how they know which passenger from the coach manifest to charge? Obviously this person shouldn't be in first/business but if the flight in coach is not full, how will they know which passenger has moved up front without asking that person their name? If the plane is full, this would be easier as there would be an empty seat in coach that can be matched up to the manifest, but people do switch seats once the doors close.

I don't believe anyone has ever been charged, to their credit card, with the upgrade without their knowledge. If someone has some concrete evidence of this happening, it would help us all to verify the "urban myths". Also if someone could verify the one about the guy with the hook for a hand that ended up hanging from my car door, I would appreciate that. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

In reading earlier posts in this thread, my understanding is that the pax which was identified as not belonging in first was approached and given two options: 1) return to their purchased coach seat; or 2) pay the fare difference to sit in first. One report is that the pax did in fact agree to pay the difference and had it charged to his card.

I don't recall seeing any reports of an airline charging a card without discussing it with the pax.

Where are all these flights that have empty seats in first? Most flights that I am on these days (Delta), first is always, always filled! Actually, coach on flghts I'm on are usually filled too. The only time I saw a half emply plane was on a Friday the 13th. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Is that a real Rolex? It better be or else I'm going to find that guy to get my $20 back!

But seriously, on a recent NW flight I was upgraded at the last moment and they wanted to close the door and I was not given a new boarding pass for 4F. I was challenged by the FA (not in the most polite manner but, hey, we're talking NW here). She had the pilot get confirmation before we pulled back (God forbid they should have briefly opened the door) and returned to lamely apologize stating, "People try to sit here all the time and I just wanted to check." I blew it off but probably could have made a bit of a stink about it. I know the FA job is tough. I always go out of my way to be EXTRA nice to them when I am up front because I notice how many people ARE NOT! It is usually people that have paid the full fare (or more accurately, their company/client) as us FT'ers would never stoop that low.

A little bit off-topic perhaps, but to follow on from what a couple of forumers have said about being 'singled out' or 'harrased' for looking as though they should not be in First / Business: I used to travel back and forward to the US from the UK every month when I ran my own business, usually with KLM / NW, and often in Business Class. Because I am young, and look even younger (and this is not a boast, this if often NOT such a good thing!!!!) then I was constantly being queried and double checked on KLM. Quite recently, I was flying back from MSP to AMS on a NW 747 with my partner, and we both had regular (i.e. conforms to NW hand baggage standards!) carry-ons. First of all, an agent at the bottom of the jetway said "I need those bags - they need to go in the hold - there's no more room in coach". When I replied that we were in business, and that they cases were regular carry on size, he didn't believe us! It was only after showing the boarding passes that he grudgingly let us pass.

Imagine my annoyance when boarding through the forward aircraft door, and instead of a cheery 'hello, welcome on board' from the flt attendant, he instead remarked loudly to a colleauge standing nearby "I thought we weren't allowing roller bags in Coach today" and moved to intercept us. There was no apology when we showed him our BP's - I guess he was too embarrased, instead just pointing in the direction of our seats.

Nowadays, I am the flight attendant - and on the airline I now work for, 'self-upgraders' are increasingly frequent. Unlike some US carriers, we always complete a full head count of passengers in each class, and this is reconciled with the manifest. The gate agent is not allowed to shut the a/c door until we have a match on passenger 'heads'. This is primarily for security purposes, but because we split the headcount by class, it often reveals a mis match with 1 or 2 extra pax in business and 1 or 2 pax under in Main cabin.

I always take the manifest, start at 1A, and walk through the cabin until I find a seat occupied that is shown as empty on the manifest, and then will politely ask to verify the boarding pass. I never try to pick out people who look too young, in casual dress, etc etc. I always go by the manifest.

Sometimes it is a genuine mistake, but more often than not people are trying to get something for nothing. Some passengers have noticed that their boarding passes are printed on card that is quite glossy, and that if they wet the BP then the ink will wipe off. Some pax have gone to the extent of wiping of the '1' or the '2' to change 12C to 2C or 24A to 4A!!! Unfortunately, on our airline, this doesn't normally wash (excuse the pun!) as we have red boarding cards for business class, and blue ones for Main cabin, so one can tell at a glance that the pax is supposed to be sitting in Economy.

When pax upgrade themselves, I find that the majority of my colleagues do not like to challenge them, and inevitably it is left to me to find the 'upgrader'. I know that on some flights, especially where we have enough business class meals, there is a tendancy amonst some of my colleagues just to let it pass, and not do anything about it. Whilst I do sometimes feel a bit mean sending someone back to Economy when Business is only half full, I do feel that is a bit devious trying to deceive the Cabin Crew on board and sneak an upgrade. I know that there are arguements for and against upgrading passengers to business, and some airlines like Continental always send out their business class full, but my airline's policy is to try and give Business Class passengers as much space as possible, often with just 1 passenger per grouping of seats. If business were to be totally full, and Economy was to be half empty with loads of room to spread out in, I guess it would eventually tee off a lot of our travellers who appreciate the space and the chance to have the seat next to them free to spread out onto etc. A bit of a long-winded explanation, but that's why I don't just let anyone upgrade themselves as and when they please.

That said, If business class does have a few empty rows, then I will try and upgrade honeymoon couples, other airline employees, as well of course as Gold frequent flyer card holders!! (Although usually they will have been upgraded by check-in staff already if business is pretty wide open)

Just my tuppence worth! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by SamuelS (edited 09-29-2000).]

SamuelS - thanks for being polite, fair, and vigilant. I don't know whether I should be happy or not that I'm never challenged [not true! now that I think about it, the day before yesterday, I was challenged by a GA making final check on US Scare - when I fly that airline I try to block it out as quickly as possible - for being in 2A (apparently listed as vacant) after the FFA had asked me to move from row 1 for some reason or other: but the FFA intervened before I could even open my mouth], but if I were, I'd certainly react more peacefully to a polite request for clarification.
As far as vigilance goes, the full-fare-paying pax get to complain about the dilution of F by the likes of me; but I'm second on the totem pole and get to complain about said dilution by people who sneak upwards on their own (whether via bought unbuyable upgrades or their own chutzpah).

Do regular, full-fare paying F-class passengers generally consider it unfair to allow frequent "coach" flyers to get an upgrade evry once in a while, using their hard-earned miles?