can someone be busted for selling a "white envelope" on ebay? If the envelope contains some gifts such as 25k mile award?

im being harassed by an airline over this issue and never thought this was an issue and there are literally thousands of similar items

This FT thread should provide insight:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...ghlight=busted

Have a look if TOS of the FFP you are talking about has a section called like �Audit and Disqualification�, "Award Transfer", �Misuse� etc. If so, you most likely find the answer of your query within these chapters.

Thanks All. I took a look and I guess they have me by me balls on this one. I closed the auction and asked that they not do anything to me FF account as I clearly had no idea this was wrong. There are vouchers, etc being hawked on ebay everyhwhere!

I was planning on tranferring the miles to an account which the airline promotes on their own web site. Seems like a crock that an airline can bait me into buying all kinds of junk to accrue miles but when I want to sell them, i can get busted. Oh well.

Hopefully the airline forgives me for a rookie mistake. I really dont want to be docked miles, etc.

A rookie mistake? Come on now....I thought everyone knew it was against airline's policies to sell/barter miles/awards. Were you honestly unaware of that?

I would actually expect most people (that are not on FT) would not know that they cannot sell or barter their miles. They probably assume these miles were earned by them and they should be able to do with them what they want.

Good luck.

William

William--

I actually did think that, and further supported by the fact that you can now transfer miles between FF accounts for a fee. Not too mention the amount of ads on ebay selling miles.

Everything was cleared up fine and my FF account is back in good standing. Still a bit perturbed about how I cant sell somthing i thought was mine, but after reading their T&C other BS babble airlines create, I know now that I'm essentially holding their property.

Moderator--you can close this thread now.

You have got to be joking. You knew.

There's a big problem with this explanation in kdinino's situation. If kdinino really didn't know that it was against the FF program's rules to sell the miles, why would they have listed an auction for "a white envelope" that happens to contain a 25k mileage award, instead of just listing the 25k miles directly? The only possible explanation for this is that kdinino knew up front that selling the miles was improper and was using the white envelope trick because they thought that they had discovered a clever way around the rule.

In my experience, you can do anything you want, but as in with MP3 files, it's when it gets BIG and goes to people you do not know (which therefore implies you would be doing it for some FEE) that airlines or feds or music promoters,or any marketer, gets mad about it.

If you were to instead, "give" that award to some friend or family member, which is fine in the eyes of the airlines, then who's to say that person didnt give you a fine case of wine in return? Is there no value there? Is it illegal?

and if it were an airline flight award for your mom to fly to see her dying father or something, can airline X say there is some monetary value placed on love and family needs? They would probably not bust you there, so the line is certainly gray--in their favor.

Basically, it's like this:

They have discovered that people have found a way to trade off these unused, unwanted miles or awads thru the now widely used and trusted portal of EBAY. Sure, the rules of selling and fine print stated against it may have always existed, but the rate at which they were ever actually prosecuted were about as low as some cop busting someone who drives thru a stop sign in their own home town they know real well at 4am. You'd never really have to worry about being bsuted for that--unless the cop was a stickler and had it out for you, and had the NEED or perceived need to find and bust these peope (possibly for more internal perks at the job for himself) and also finally found an easy way to actually do it with little effort. (If the cop could use some computer terminal to see you--like with ebay transactions)

So yeah, Ebay, which is used by everybody, suddenly makes this little once-local act of trading or giving someone you know an award, become a huge money-making venture that the airlines know is getting you some coin, while they are still fussig about trying to figure out ways to bait and switch their customers. YOu found a way out and they want a piece of the action--or to prevent it. hey have, by bsuting people who they pick on the ebay highway, just like those other times when you get pulled over for doing 80, whilst the guy next to you gets away with it scott free.
(and who the heck IS scott anyway?)

that's my take on it.

Find someone at home or in the office who wants to fly. Make them give you lift tickets to your favorites ski area or great seat tickets to the next baseball game between the Red Sox and the Yanks instead! That's worth more anyhow.

Well I, like others here, must also respectfully disagree. If you were selling miles straight up, I could see you have a point about not knowing.

The fact that you and dozens of other obfuscate the real transaction by selling an envelope for some amount of money far more than its fair market value indicates that you must have known that there was something a little dodgy about the practice. Sorry, as I tell my daughter, no sympathy from this quarter.

It may seem bizarre to us FT'ers, but I truly believe that most "normal" people don't know you aren't supposed to buy/sell the award tickets. (We Mileage Geeks are not "normal". )

I think I traded about a dozen TWA free-flight certs with buddies/coworkers in the early- to mid-90's before I actually figured out that the airline kinda frowned upon that sort of thing. I've traded certs for Chiefs tickets, a stack of CDs, a flight coupon for another airline that went somewhere that TWA didn't, a few bottles of good wine, free hotel-nights, or simply a "favor to be named later."

I never thought of it as a seedy-dark-alley deal. I never said to my buddies "Don't tell TWA that we did this. They might cancel your flight." I thought I had just as much right to move the certs as I would to deal used CDs or wine.

Granted, I never did it on eBay and I never traded with a stranger, but that was more because I didn't know much about those processes (eBay was in its infancy) - not because I was scared of getting busted by the airline.

As for the "white envelope", that's just a sign that the seller is an amatuer. (I mean this as a compliment, kdinino. ) Any serious ticket scalper knows that using "white envelope" language provides no legal protection for the transaction.

Gimme a break!

If you've flown (or charged, or stayed, or rented) enough to actually earn enough miles for a free flight, then you've got to know that the rules of the mileage credits state that the points/miles, nor the resulting rewards, can be sold or bartered. I was just on a United flight this morning and right there, in the Hemisphere's inflight magazine, is a quarter page advertisment exclusively stating "Don't sell or barter your United Miles" in big bold print.

I'm not saying I've got any problem with actually selling or barting miles & awards - I'm just saying everyone knows you're not supposed to do it.

With the exception of SouthWest, who appears to turn a blind eye to Ebay sales, I don't see a lot of miles & rewards sales on Ebay (just did a search for Delta and United which turned up a lot of coupons & discounts, but very few miles & awards). It seems that the majority of the airlines actually do try to enforce this policy when it comes to a worldwide marketplace like ebay.

The references to "illegal" activity are off base. There is nothing "illegal" about selling miles or awards and you aren't going to go to jail or face a big (governmentally enforced) fine for it. It's simply a term of the "contract" you have with the Airline. The airline gives you miles/points, and you give them certain promises in return. If you breach your part of the contract, the airline has the right to void the contract all together.

I'd be interested to know from the Original Poster what the exact correspondence was between the airline (what airline was it), Ebay and him. In other words, give us the details on how ya got busted!

Final word: My favorite auction in my recent search was the guy who was selling the "white envelope" with the "free gift" of a rounnd trip ticket in it. He specifically says in the auction that the round trip ticket is "fully transferrable"....aaahhhhhhhh, ok then, how about just selling the damn ticket and fuggitabout the white envelope?

Not only do I disagree for the general public (who, by and large, has no clue and does not read the little ads in inflight magazines), but I don't even think we FT'ers know the rules. Look at Coupon Connection: at least half of the proposed sales on the front page violate the T&C's of the airlines or hotels. (I know hotels don't actually pursue violators like a few airlines do, but that's not the point.) How 'bout that one offering 90,000 miles in one program for 70,000 in another? How 'bout those systemwides: the guy wants to hawk the certs, but doesn't want them to be resold on eBay. Why does he care? Probably because that airline lurks eBay and will be on his case if his SWU winds up there.

Since I know the host of this board doesn't knowingly want to violate the rules of the programs, that leads me to believe that the people here trading SWU's, miles, certificates, free nights, etc. don't really know what is allowed and what isn't. Or the moderators don't know the rules. Every single one of those certificates has the same language on the back about bartering/selling - deep within the fine print. (Even my innocent 2-for-1 dinner certs for Marriott have it.)

I'm not saying that Coupon Connection is wrong. I think we should all be allowed to barter at will without fear that the airline will hold us in breach of contract. The guy who gave me his old CD's can't be sued by Sony. (I know what you're thinking, but it was 10 years pre-Napster.) I'm just saying that there is a lot of confusion out there as to what the airlines/hotels absolutely will try to stop you from doing, what they frown on, and what they are totally okay with.

Wow i started such a debate here. Honestly, I didnt know. Ive sold miles before and never thought it was a problem. I'm an FTer but I admit Im not too much "in the know:" w/ every nook and cranny of airline business. That said. The white envelope part is a copy and paste thing I have done from past auctions. It seems everyone had that on their ads so i used it for mine.

Listen, its over now. I pulled my auction and the airline is fine w/ that and no foul was done to either party.