So, after all, does it mean I am fine since I will am returning to YYZ. In simple terms, I am completing a roundtrip in the middle of another roundtrip, both will require a Sat stay. Is this allowed?

Regards,
Empress

I buy all my tickets direct from the airline. If they sell them to me, there's no way in hell they can come back and say I'm breaking some arbitrary rule that is designed to part me from more of my money.

Punki, you have nothing to worry about. That's just smart shopping.

Empress,

It only matters if you nested round trip involves the same destinations....that is when they can invoke all there vague rules...


Dorian

I just called Canadian and asked them whether I can do this...they said perfectly fine. The only thing is to do it in two tickets and make it look like there is a Sat. night stay.
So it would be:

Ticket 1:
YYZ - YVR (Connect through YYC)
YVR - YYZ (Connect through YYC)

Ticket 2:
YVR - YOW (Connect through YYZ)
YOW - YVR (Connect through YYZ)

The reason for me making connections instead of direct flight is because short flight like YYZ - YOW is only < 250 points in reality but they will give you the minimum 500 points. which gives me a total of 2585 when in fact it is only around 2200.

One interesting thing is before I hang up, the agent "voluntary" said to me, you can even return to Toronto if you want, just do it in two seperate ticket.

I asked her to explain what exactly is "back to back", she hesitated and couldn't answer. She diverted the topic by sayinhg what I am doing is perfectly fine then moves on to ask whether I need to book it.

Regards,
Empress

I think she was being kind....I have been 'stopped' from doing this before. She probably doesn't really understand the 'rules'.

Dorian

I really don't think Punki's scenario fits the "back-to-back" moniker. A classic back to back is indeed somewhat "tricky" because it involves OVERLAPPING tickets

e.g.
Ticket 1:
OCT16: IAD-SFO
OCT28: SFO-IAD

Ticket 2:
OCT17 SFO-IAD
OCT27 IAD-SFO

Actual itinerary:
OCT16: IAD-SFO (from ticket 1)
OCT17: SFO-IAD (from ticket 2)
OCT27: IAD-SFO (from ticket 2)
OCT28: SFO-IAD (from ticket 1)

Two San Francisco trips at discounted fares with overlapping tickets. Clearly a violation.

But what Punki supposes is that you take your home and desitination and reverse them. So all you are really doing is buying a series of consecutive discounted tickets. There is no overlapping tix and no violation, as Punki's dancer analogy makes clear...who the heck is the airline to say where your "regular point of embarkation" should be?

But what I really like about Punki's idea is that it means you are always "on the road" when you are sleeping in your own bed since you are in the middle of a ticket and you are "home" when on travel since you are in between tickets..which is how many of us have felt at one time or another anyway... http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

BTW, I mentioned this to a friend over the long weekend who commutes each week to Boston (up on monday, back on friday) and suggested he try this. Turns out he figured it out months ago and has been doing it since, the BOS-IAD weekend fares being about half the price of the IAD-BOS midweek roundtrip fare...

TicketPhantom, purchasing your tickets directly from the airline will not absolve you from any of their penalties. Additionally, they have the right to enforce their rules or tariff violations at any moment they choose, regardless of where the tickets were purchased, even as you check in, board or deplane. There are creative and strategic ways to purchase multiple tickets to minimize detection of possible violations. However, once detected by the airline, it's their call.

Sorry Empress, for ignoring you. You deserve an answer. After all, you started this fine thread. I believe it would be helpful if you would list your itinerary by a per ticket breakdown including the order you will actually be flying your segments. The flight sequence can make the difference as to whether any of the airline's rules are violated.

Punki, purchasing a ticket and not flying all the segments is a violation of most airlines. I feel it’s an asinine rule. It's called Throwaway ticketing.

Is there an attorney in the house? Where's Djlawman when we need him??? http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Assuming tickets require a Saturday night stay:
In your example "..... Monday through Saturday so I fly to SFO every Monday morning to get to work, work through Saturday and then fly back home Sunday morning for a well deserved day off."

No intent or "... purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules." No Rules Violation! By booking a Monday outbound and the following Sunday return, you have met the Saturday night requirement by staying over a Saturday night.

In your questions, "Why would I be treated any differently than the guy who flies out Sunday night and then flies back Friday night? Why aren't his tickets back to back?

You did not indicate examples of how he is ticketed, (the sequence of each individual roundtrip). That would make the difference whether a violation has occurred. If each roundtrip is booked Sunday outbound and Friday return (of the same calendar week), No Rules Violation! However, he is probably paying a much higher price due to no Saturday night stay. If he is ticketed creatively, as in your original example with each roundtrip ticket including a Saturday night stay, (in his case, a Friday outbound and Monday return), it could be determined by the airline that his purpose is to circumvent rules. He is using his tickets back-to-back.

In your question, "And what's the difference between this and my first example."

The difference is purpose or intent. In your first example you were using (back-to-back) parts of two roundtrip tickets to attend or "...have a meeting every Wednesday in San Francisco." In your current "dancer" example, you were not. With your current example, you were actually staying over a Saturday night and met the Saturday night stay requirements.

It all depends what is, is. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The airline is the judge and jury. Sad but true. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Just my perspective!

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-12-1999).]

Punki, I think that is totally fine, and quite a good idea.

The way to totally hide this "trick" from the airline is to fly on 2 separate airlines. So Ticket 2 is on WN taking you to SFO (the return) on WEd morning, and Ticket 3 is on AS wed afternoon to LAX. THat way you have a saturday stay in both destination and origin as far as each airline knows.

I know, it splits your mileage, well, see if you can do it on two partners to pool them into one account.

As for the initial one-way trip, take the train, AS has the amtrack promotion I believe to get miles on west coast trips... discussed somewhere under alaska's forum...

Or, instead of an initial expensive one way ticket, by airline 3 (or 2 if you do all the same airline for the other trips) round trip, with open return, or return many weeks later for that initial flight, that way you still have a discounted return ticket, you dont throw it away, and you can start the whole process over...

MRLIMO, you are absolutely to be commended on playing a great devils advocate here, keeping all of us "honest", or at least keep us from getting totally out of hand. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

TG

It seems, in summary, that the airlines definition of "back to back" simply means any version where the pax uses two tickets and thereby saves money!" And so it is "illegal!"

Thank you so much, tummyg! http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif It was great to hear your words of encouragement and positive reinforcement. It was a real challenge for me to justify, rationalize, defend and attempt to explain airline policies that I personally so vehemently oppose and that totally disgust me. I'm glad you saw through me. My sincere thanks.

When I had a couple month assignment in Topeka, I started out on a one-way ORD-MCI, then had round trips MACI_ORD_MCI for the weekends at home. I finished up early (or the budget ran out, hard to say), so I still have one ORD-MCI segment.

I am going there this week on a RT ticket, so I will still have the segment left over, until (if there is a) next time.

Punki/Mr.Limo - It may well be against the rules to do the 1 way then round trips with a Sat night stay and another one way, but I purchase all of my tickets at the UA CTO office and they are fully aware of what I am doing and have never advised me that it is not OK nor have I had any MP problems because of it. Rules do not necessarly = reality. This is just my experience.

Thanks.

echo to what auh20 says. It was in fact an Air Canada agent that showed me how to do back to back http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Overwhelming response to this topic!!

I hope to get this resolved soon, cause ticketing has to be done 72 hours prior which is about tomorrow morning.

My exact itenary will be the following:

Ticket 1:
YYZ - YYC 0855 - 1055 Oct 16
YYC - YVR 1200 - 1227 Oct 16
Calgary is a connecting point in this ticket
YVR - YYC 1200 - 1421 Oct 18
YYC - YYZ 1600 - 2129 Oct 18

Alternative # 1 for Ticket 2:
YVR - YOW (non-stop flight) 1415-2200 Oct 16
YOW - YVR (non-stop flight) 0845-1045 Oct 16

Alternative # 2 for Ticket 2:
YVR - YYZ 1415 - 2135 Oct 16
YYZ - YOW 2230 - 2330 Oct 16
YOW - YYZ 0645 - 0745 Oct 18
YYZ - YVR 0845 - 1030 Oct 18
Which of course the question here is whether I am permitted to use YYZ as the connection point ot whether they will bust me for trying to make it back to back. If so, will using YYC as the connection point be better or should I just go direct from YVR - YOW. Connecting will get me probably at least 1000 more status miles.

Regards,
Empress

Well, um, I guess I must have been joking about that itinerary I posted on page 1.
I would never, ever, um, violate, um, the airlines rules and regulations just to save money on a trip. I, um, have always?! and will always?! book well within the rules and regulations and happily pay the most expensive fare applicable!
(Posted for further reference....)