Is this permitted?
 

I have a plan for the following trip, is this allowable?

Oct 16 YYZ - YYC
Oct 16 YYC - YYZ - YUL
Oct 18 YUL - YYC
Oct 18 YYC - YYZ

I am only going through YYZ as a connection. The reason for returning to YYC before back to YYZ is just to complete the roundtrip from the Oct 16 trip from YYC - YUL because buying a one way ticket is quite expensive. I am trying to do this itenary because I just need to meet with a client for a couple hours in YYC and then another one in YUL so I don't want to stay in YYC. Is the airline going to bust me for going through/back to YYZ before completing the first roundtrip?

Let me know if this is too confusing, I'll reworded again. Seems like the airline couldn't figure it out when I ask them, they keep telling me it's a circle trip and I can't do it. If I do, I will book this as two seperate ticket, is this a better idea?

Regards,
Empress

I usually book such itineraries as 2 (or more) tickets to save the hassle. Sometimes though it gets more expensive to split it into multiple tickets.

Dorian

Interesting topic, got me thinking...

I bought two roundtrips, one CID-ORD to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. The other ORD-CID, to Oct. 9 back Oct. 11. Flew and recieved credit for both flights on Oct. 9, flying the other two here in a few hours.
I was thinking that as long as I fly all the segments (which was the point anyway, just to get four segments and sale price was really cheap!) I am not reaking any rules??
I know the airlines were cracking down on people buying two and using them without flying all the segments to cheapen fares, but I will be flying all the segments...
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Airlines try and not permit overlapping itineraries as it results in lost revenue.

If you are often fly to the same location for only a day or two you can take advantage of Saturday stays and one week stays to get lower fares.

I have been stopped from doing this once....so I just booked 2 different carriers....all the miles to one account though!

Dorian

upupaway's itinerary is two nested roundtrips. The airlines will not be happy if they notice it, but, as Dorian stated, you can just use two different airlines.

Empress' itinerary seems to be a roundtrip (YYZ-YYC-YYZ), plus a circle trip (YYZ-YUL-YYC-YYZ). Your most likely shot at reducing the cost will be if you can arrange the stop in YYC on Oct 18 as a connection. Then the circle trip becomes a roundtrip YYZ-YUL-xYYC-YYZ.

Ok let's say you live in LA and have a meeting every Wednesday in SanFrancisco.

Somehow, by train, car, one-way ticket, whatever, you manage to get to SFO. Then you start buying tickets like this:

Oct 20-3 PM SFO/LAX - Oct 27 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Oct 27-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 3 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 3-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 10 LAX/SFO 8 AM
Nov 10-3 PM SFO/LAX - Nov 17 LAX/SFO 8 AM

Is there anything wrong with this? You have a Sat stay and it is just one cheap ticket after another. No nesting, no back to back. Is there a rule that says you can fly on two different tickets on the same day?

Of course you have to buy the initial expensive one-way ticket, but overtime that will prorated to practically nothing.

That SFO itinerary is ofcourse okay. What I have tried (and done) is this:

Ticket #1:

Oct. 15 FRA-YYZ
Oct. 26 YYZ-FRA

Ticket #2:

Oct. 17 YYZ-FRA
Oct. 24 FRA-YYZ

This gives me 2 one day meetings at YYZ. It also gives me a Saturday stay and a savings of around CAN$2000 (biz. class) per ticket. Totally illegal itineraries, though I don't REALLY know illegal to whom?!

Dorian!

Punki: you are a GENIUS!

[This message has been edited by Matt Wald (edited 10-11-1999).]

Punki, Not Allowed! Sorry to rain on your parade, (I'm just the messenger). http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Those are indeed, Back-To-Back tickets in spite of your creative packaging. You are using portions of two roundtrip tickets to circumvent their "rules." Using United Airlines as an example:
The following is from 1Travel.com's "Rules Of The Air, know all the rules before you take off!"
Years ago I was advised by my travel professional that they would no longer issue back-to-back tickets to me. They informed me they could be liable (for the difference) and would naturally have to charge my account. Prior to that time I hadn't even realized that it was against any rules. I simply thought I was being a savvy and prudent consumer. Some of my high school teachers would have been proud of me! I still try to be, though, every chance I get. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Here are some interesting links:
1.travel.com: Rules Of The Air
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm
Passenger Rights.Com
https://www.passengerrights.com/
Best Fares: Consumer Complaint Links To Make Your Voice Heard On Airline Issues http://www.bestfares.com/member/desk.../10012751L.asp
Travel Rights Galore
http://ww2.blp.net/blpnet/article.html?article_id=13236

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]

My travel agent will not allow me to nest tickets, but had no problem with allowing me to book a 1 way, a bunch of RT's, and a 1 way at the end.

Most of the folks at my company do that when traveling to a client for more than 1 month.

Tom

Here is the problem as I see it:

Ticketing rules for specific fares are objective and easy to understand, as regards minimum and maximum stays, days of week, etc. In fact, it would otherwise be very hard to implement ticketing and fare calculation by computer!

Rules such as United's "Back-to-Back Ticketing" rule quoted above are vague and subjective.

IMHO, the airline can certainly write the rules so as to maximize its revenue, but the passenger, by the same token, ought to be able to use the same rules so as to minimize his or her expenditure. Otherwise the following could occur:

Let's say you were about to spend a month at a client location, with a short trip back home in the middle to pick up the mail, save your marriage, whatever. If you planned this beforehand, you might book something like the following:

1 Oct LGA-ORD
13 Oct ORD-LGA
14 Oct LGA-ORD
29 Oct ORD-LGA

So you have two round trips, both at discount fares. But what would you think if the airline looked at this and said you're trying to evade the fare rules, and the only discount round trip allowed is 1 Oct/29 Oct, with the short trip home in the middle of the month having to be ORD-LGA-ORD, at full fare? Would anybody tolerate this? I don't think so.

How do you figure they are back to back. On my first ticket I am flying to LAX and staying there a week. Then I fly back to SFO.

With my second ticket new ticket I fly to LAX and stay there for a week. Then I fly back to SFO.

With a third brand new ticket I fly to LAX again and stay there for a week.

And so on and so on. In each instance I use the whole round-trip ticket exactly as booked and comply precisely with the airlines rules. Unless the airline can come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips, which of course is ridiculous and counterproductive and impossible, I believe this is perfectly "legal" whatever that means.

If you don't think so, please state clearly and precisely why not. (In your own words please, and prefereably not too many of them.) http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif I was a blonde for a long time and developed difficulties comprehending long technical explanations.

Punki, although there are various ways that sets of roundtrip tickets become back-to-back from the airline's point of view; I will use your ticketing example, flying all segments exactly as booked, and will try my best to illustrate the back-to-back transformation.

Using your example, each roundtrip ticket, in and of itself, would create no problem when flown as booked if no other tickets were involved. For a passenger to be violating the airline's back-to-back rules, at least an additional ticket must be booked, as in your example. The airlines feel it is within their purview and their prerogative to look beyond just a single roundtrip ticket and play judge and jury to your intent. If the airline feels you are flying, using two or more roundtrip tickets to avoid any of their tariff rules, (Saturday night stay, for example) they consider that back-to-back ticketing. In other words, they do not treat each roundtrip ticket by itself. They make a combined assessment of all your tickets and reach their conclusions.

By applying their back-to-back interpretation on our ticket purchases, they have, in your words, "come up with a way to limit the time between separate roundtrips." I only wish I had the resources to fight them on this and a few other ticketing rules. A class action lawsuit, perhaps??? Just my perspective!

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-11-1999).]

Punki,

I don't think it was the blondness as much as the dirty martini's!

newself http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

To the business at hand? Ok let's say I am a dancer who lives in LA and works in SFO. My club is open Monday through Saturday so I fly to SFO every Monday morning to get to work, work through Saturday and then fly back home Sunday morning for a well deserved day off. What's the problem? And what's the difference between this and my first example.

If you aren't using all the ticket, as written, maybe they would have a case. But if you just happen to be buying tickets and using them one after another to live your life the way you see fit (albeit a little differently than the Monday - Friday routine they think is the "norm") they would be very hard pressed to establish a case.

Actually it might be fun to see them try. When one started explaining one's alternative life style which substantiated these odd choices of flight days, I could see a whole lot of possibilities that the airlines just might get charged with violation of civil rights by discriminating against people who just don't happen to fit into their picture of normal.

Why would I be treated any differently than the guy who flies out Sunday night and then flies back Friday night? Why aren't his tickets back to back? Are they disciminating against me because I am a dancer? Because I am a woman? Are they even sure I am a woman? Because I dance in San Francisco? Because I am 110 (although I know some of you think that is a conservative number)?

Tsk, tsk you nasty old airlines. You just take my money, maintain your aircraft and keep your 737 noses out of my personal business. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

So, after all, does it mean I am fine since I will am returning to YYZ. In simple terms, I am completing a roundtrip in the middle of another roundtrip, both will require a Sat stay. Is this allowed?

Regards,
Empress

I buy all my tickets direct from the airline. If they sell them to me, there's no way in hell they can come back and say I'm breaking some arbitrary rule that is designed to part me from more of my money.

Punki, you have nothing to worry about. That's just smart shopping.

Empress,

It only matters if you nested round trip involves the same destinations....that is when they can invoke all there vague rules...


Dorian

I just called Canadian and asked them whether I can do this...they said perfectly fine. The only thing is to do it in two tickets and make it look like there is a Sat. night stay.
So it would be:

Ticket 1:
YYZ - YVR (Connect through YYC)
YVR - YYZ (Connect through YYC)

Ticket 2:
YVR - YOW (Connect through YYZ)
YOW - YVR (Connect through YYZ)

The reason for me making connections instead of direct flight is because short flight like YYZ - YOW is only < 250 points in reality but they will give you the minimum 500 points. which gives me a total of 2585 when in fact it is only around 2200.

One interesting thing is before I hang up, the agent "voluntary" said to me, you can even return to Toronto if you want, just do it in two seperate ticket.

I asked her to explain what exactly is "back to back", she hesitated and couldn't answer. She diverted the topic by sayinhg what I am doing is perfectly fine then moves on to ask whether I need to book it.

Regards,
Empress

I think she was being kind....I have been 'stopped' from doing this before. She probably doesn't really understand the 'rules'.

Dorian

I really don't think Punki's scenario fits the "back-to-back" moniker. A classic back to back is indeed somewhat "tricky" because it involves OVERLAPPING tickets

e.g.
Ticket 1:
OCT16: IAD-SFO
OCT28: SFO-IAD

Ticket 2:
OCT17 SFO-IAD
OCT27 IAD-SFO

Actual itinerary:
OCT16: IAD-SFO (from ticket 1)
OCT17: SFO-IAD (from ticket 2)
OCT27: IAD-SFO (from ticket 2)
OCT28: SFO-IAD (from ticket 1)

Two San Francisco trips at discounted fares with overlapping tickets. Clearly a violation.

But what Punki supposes is that you take your home and desitination and reverse them. So all you are really doing is buying a series of consecutive discounted tickets. There is no overlapping tix and no violation, as Punki's dancer analogy makes clear...who the heck is the airline to say where your "regular point of embarkation" should be?

But what I really like about Punki's idea is that it means you are always "on the road" when you are sleeping in your own bed since you are in the middle of a ticket and you are "home" when on travel since you are in between tickets..which is how many of us have felt at one time or another anyway... http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

BTW, I mentioned this to a friend over the long weekend who commutes each week to Boston (up on monday, back on friday) and suggested he try this. Turns out he figured it out months ago and has been doing it since, the BOS-IAD weekend fares being about half the price of the IAD-BOS midweek roundtrip fare...

TicketPhantom, purchasing your tickets directly from the airline will not absolve you from any of their penalties. Additionally, they have the right to enforce their rules or tariff violations at any moment they choose, regardless of where the tickets were purchased, even as you check in, board or deplane. There are creative and strategic ways to purchase multiple tickets to minimize detection of possible violations. However, once detected by the airline, it's their call.

Sorry Empress, for ignoring you. You deserve an answer. After all, you started this fine thread. I believe it would be helpful if you would list your itinerary by a per ticket breakdown including the order you will actually be flying your segments. The flight sequence can make the difference as to whether any of the airline's rules are violated.

Punki, purchasing a ticket and not flying all the segments is a violation of most airlines. I feel it’s an asinine rule. It's called Throwaway ticketing.

Is there an attorney in the house? Where's Djlawman when we need him??? http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Assuming tickets require a Saturday night stay:
In your example "..... Monday through Saturday so I fly to SFO every Monday morning to get to work, work through Saturday and then fly back home Sunday morning for a well deserved day off."

No intent or "... purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules." No Rules Violation! By booking a Monday outbound and the following Sunday return, you have met the Saturday night requirement by staying over a Saturday night.

In your questions, "Why would I be treated any differently than the guy who flies out Sunday night and then flies back Friday night? Why aren't his tickets back to back?

You did not indicate examples of how he is ticketed, (the sequence of each individual roundtrip). That would make the difference whether a violation has occurred. If each roundtrip is booked Sunday outbound and Friday return (of the same calendar week), No Rules Violation! However, he is probably paying a much higher price due to no Saturday night stay. If he is ticketed creatively, as in your original example with each roundtrip ticket including a Saturday night stay, (in his case, a Friday outbound and Monday return), it could be determined by the airline that his purpose is to circumvent rules. He is using his tickets back-to-back.

In your question, "And what's the difference between this and my first example."

The difference is purpose or intent. In your first example you were using (back-to-back) parts of two roundtrip tickets to attend or "...have a meeting every Wednesday in San Francisco." In your current "dancer" example, you were not. With your current example, you were actually staying over a Saturday night and met the Saturday night stay requirements.

It all depends what is, is. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The airline is the judge and jury. Sad but true. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Just my perspective!

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 10-12-1999).]

Punki, I think that is totally fine, and quite a good idea.

The way to totally hide this "trick" from the airline is to fly on 2 separate airlines. So Ticket 2 is on WN taking you to SFO (the return) on WEd morning, and Ticket 3 is on AS wed afternoon to LAX. THat way you have a saturday stay in both destination and origin as far as each airline knows.

I know, it splits your mileage, well, see if you can do it on two partners to pool them into one account.

As for the initial one-way trip, take the train, AS has the amtrack promotion I believe to get miles on west coast trips... discussed somewhere under alaska's forum...

Or, instead of an initial expensive one way ticket, by airline 3 (or 2 if you do all the same airline for the other trips) round trip, with open return, or return many weeks later for that initial flight, that way you still have a discounted return ticket, you dont throw it away, and you can start the whole process over...

MRLIMO, you are absolutely to be commended on playing a great devils advocate here, keeping all of us "honest", or at least keep us from getting totally out of hand. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

TG

It seems, in summary, that the airlines definition of "back to back" simply means any version where the pax uses two tickets and thereby saves money!" And so it is "illegal!"

Thank you so much, tummyg! http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif It was great to hear your words of encouragement and positive reinforcement. It was a real challenge for me to justify, rationalize, defend and attempt to explain airline policies that I personally so vehemently oppose and that totally disgust me. I'm glad you saw through me. My sincere thanks.

When I had a couple month assignment in Topeka, I started out on a one-way ORD-MCI, then had round trips MACI_ORD_MCI for the weekends at home. I finished up early (or the budget ran out, hard to say), so I still have one ORD-MCI segment.

I am going there this week on a RT ticket, so I will still have the segment left over, until (if there is a) next time.

Punki/Mr.Limo - It may well be against the rules to do the 1 way then round trips with a Sat night stay and another one way, but I purchase all of my tickets at the UA CTO office and they are fully aware of what I am doing and have never advised me that it is not OK nor have I had any MP problems because of it. Rules do not necessarly = reality. This is just my experience.

Thanks.

echo to what auh20 says. It was in fact an Air Canada agent that showed me how to do back to back http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Overwhelming response to this topic!!

I hope to get this resolved soon, cause ticketing has to be done 72 hours prior which is about tomorrow morning.

My exact itenary will be the following:

Ticket 1:
YYZ - YYC 0855 - 1055 Oct 16
YYC - YVR 1200 - 1227 Oct 16
Calgary is a connecting point in this ticket
YVR - YYC 1200 - 1421 Oct 18
YYC - YYZ 1600 - 2129 Oct 18

Alternative # 1 for Ticket 2:
YVR - YOW (non-stop flight) 1415-2200 Oct 16
YOW - YVR (non-stop flight) 0845-1045 Oct 16

Alternative # 2 for Ticket 2:
YVR - YYZ 1415 - 2135 Oct 16
YYZ - YOW 2230 - 2330 Oct 16
YOW - YYZ 0645 - 0745 Oct 18
YYZ - YVR 0845 - 1030 Oct 18
Which of course the question here is whether I am permitted to use YYZ as the connection point ot whether they will bust me for trying to make it back to back. If so, will using YYC as the connection point be better or should I just go direct from YVR - YOW. Connecting will get me probably at least 1000 more status miles.

Regards,
Empress

Well, um, I guess I must have been joking about that itinerary I posted on page 1.
I would never, ever, um, violate, um, the airlines rules and regulations just to save money on a trip. I, um, have always?! and will always?! book well within the rules and regulations and happily pay the most expensive fare applicable!
(Posted for further reference....)

Still haven't figure this out as I ended up didn't do this itinary as I only went to YYC. But I would still want to know whether this is permitted.

How do they catch you anyways? How do they know and catch you doing back to back? Is it from point posting? But I think it is done by computer, is it?

Regards,
Empress

As far as I know, they don't catch you and no one I have ever heard of has as much as been questioned about it. I think they are just trying to scare you.