Ticket question
Aug 28, 1999 | 3:04 am
#1
Original Poster
Company Representative - Air Canada
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 24,224
Ticket question
I have a question that I am sort of confused about…
Just found out today I will need to travel between Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver for the rest of the year… I want to know is the following situation "legal":
I will buy two tickets - one is YYZ - YVR and another one for YVR - YOW, both tickets will require Saturday night stay…I will travel YYZ - YVR firday, YVR - YOW Saturday, YOW - YVR Sunday and YVR - YYZ either Sunday or Monday. If this is permitted, it will save me a lot of time and also allow me to get more points at the expense of my company…
I will need to do this about 6 times this year, which will get me Platinum for next year… however, I am worry that the airline will accuse me of not staying in YVR for Saturday.
Regards,
Empress
Just found out today I will need to travel between Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver for the rest of the year… I want to know is the following situation "legal":
I will buy two tickets - one is YYZ - YVR and another one for YVR - YOW, both tickets will require Saturday night stay…I will travel YYZ - YVR firday, YVR - YOW Saturday, YOW - YVR Sunday and YVR - YYZ either Sunday or Monday. If this is permitted, it will save me a lot of time and also allow me to get more points at the expense of my company…
I will need to do this about 6 times this year, which will get me Platinum for next year… however, I am worry that the airline will accuse me of not staying in YVR for Saturday.Regards,
Empress
Aug 28, 1999 | 3:51 am
#2
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Half the World & More and then some.
Programs: BA, SQ, AA, QF, CX, VS
Posts: 1,202
It is not kosher but it is done.
Because you are actually travelling all segments, you shouldn't have to worry. It is however not encouraged to use say, YYZ-YVR, and then YVR-YOW and then throwing the rest of the ticket away. But I believe that you did a similar stint when you were in YVR recently. You just got a roundtrip from YVR-YYZ for the weekend before you were due home anyway.
Just make sure your CPlus number is on file on each reservation. Then the points get credited automatically. And don't change your dates. If you can commit to all your reservations, then you're fine!
Happy travelling.
Because you are actually travelling all segments, you shouldn't have to worry. It is however not encouraged to use say, YYZ-YVR, and then YVR-YOW and then throwing the rest of the ticket away. But I believe that you did a similar stint when you were in YVR recently. You just got a roundtrip from YVR-YYZ for the weekend before you were due home anyway.
Just make sure your CPlus number is on file on each reservation. Then the points get credited automatically. And don't change your dates. If you can commit to all your reservations, then you're fine!
Happy travelling.
Aug 28, 1999 | 4:52 am
#3
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: (SNA) Orange County, California USA
Posts: 3,641
Empress, For clarification, information at the following link may be helpful. Especially, the topics: Tickets: Back-To-Back, Throwaway and Hidden City. Best wishes reaching Platinum! 
Rules Of The Air
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm
Using American Airlines as an example (most airlines' rules are similar on this topic)
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 08-28-1999).]
Rules Of The Air
http://www.onetravel.com/rules/rules.cfm
Using American Airlines as an example (most airlines' rules are similar on this topic)
American Airlines
Tickets: Back-To-Back -- Rule 100E
… a ticket is invalid: … if American Airlines determines that the ticket has been purchased or used in a manner designed to circumvent applicable fare rules.
American Airlines specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as: … "BACK TO BACK TICKETING" - The combination of two or more round-trip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements …
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger’s non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American Airlines has the right in its sole discretion to:
a. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger’s itinerary,
b. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
c. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger’s baggage, or
d. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger’s actual itinerary.
Tickets: Back-To-Back -- Rule 100E
… a ticket is invalid: … if American Airlines determines that the ticket has been purchased or used in a manner designed to circumvent applicable fare rules.
American Airlines specifically prohibits the practices commonly known as: … "BACK TO BACK TICKETING" - The combination of two or more round-trip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements …
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger’s non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American Airlines has the right in its sole discretion to:
a. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger’s itinerary,
b. Confiscate unused flight coupons,
c. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger’s baggage, or
d. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger’s actual itinerary.
Aug 28, 1999 | 5:00 am
#4
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Canada
Programs: AC SE 2MM, HH Dd, Bonvoy G; IC S; AA; DL
Posts: 14,496
I fail to see what the problem is. YOW is 4 hours from YYZ (by car). The airlines cannot control what you do for your weekends unless you specifically violate the fare rules. This is not true back to back.
I should think CP would be happy for the business -- they are trying to sell seats aren't they?
Now if Empress tried to go back to YYZ for the weekend on CP, that would violate the back to back rule. Even there, my experience has been that the airlines honor the tickets (even on the same airline). After all, it was an AC agent that first booked me two back to backs
!
[This message has been edited by BlondeBomber (edited 08-28-1999).]
I should think CP would be happy for the business -- they are trying to sell seats aren't they?
Now if Empress tried to go back to YYZ for the weekend on CP, that would violate the back to back rule. Even there, my experience has been that the airlines honor the tickets (even on the same airline). After all, it was an AC agent that first booked me two back to backs
![This message has been edited by BlondeBomber (edited 08-28-1999).]
Aug 28, 1999 | 9:08 am
#5
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York City
Programs: UA MM-1P, Hilton Life Diamond, Marriot Life Gold, ICH Spire
Posts: 4,080
I also don't understand what is non-kosher in any way about this trip? If you travel round-trip from YYZ-YVR, encompassing a weekend, why should the airline care if you also take a round-trip from YVR-YOW while there, also encompassing the same weekend. It's the same thing as if I went to Los Angeles from New York for a month on an excursion ticket, and while there went to Las Vegas for a weekend, and back to L.A., including a Saturday night.
Aug 28, 1999 | 9:16 am
#6
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: New York
Posts: 2,115
I'm not an expert on the canadian legal system, howver, I think the airline would have a very difficult time, claiming this is back to back.
You are flying Toronto to vancouver on business, need to be there on monday and friday and decided to fly to Ottawa for the weekend in between.
These are 2 seperate trips.
I've used this many times in the US, when I have a 2 week business trip. If I'm flying to ST louis for 2 weeks, the airlines can't force me to stay there over the weekend, I can fly anywhere I want, its a seperate trip.
The key, in my opinion, is that you arent flying back to toronto for the weekend.
You are flying Toronto to vancouver on business, need to be there on monday and friday and decided to fly to Ottawa for the weekend in between.
These are 2 seperate trips.
I've used this many times in the US, when I have a 2 week business trip. If I'm flying to ST louis for 2 weeks, the airlines can't force me to stay there over the weekend, I can fly anywhere I want, its a seperate trip.
The key, in my opinion, is that you arent flying back to toronto for the weekend.
Aug 28, 1999 | 10:12 am
#7
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: See pitflyer
Posts: 1,620
I agree with the others here -- it would be back to back ticketing, for example, if you went back to your original destination on that weekend in the middle -- then it's to avoid the fares and the airlines don't like htat. However, I don't see why for example I couldn't travel somewhere, stay over the weekend and then decide to take an esaver or any other fare for a side trip from my destination.
Aug 28, 1999 | 10:21 am
#8
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: (SNA) Orange County, California USA
Posts: 3,641
Empress, I provided the above Rules Of The Air link "For clarification" purposes, rules from official and reliable sources, so that you could ascertain that you were not in conflict with any of the airline's applicable fare rules. Didn't mean to imply anything to the contrary. Sounds as if you have a green light all the way, from the looks of these various responses.
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 08-28-1999).]
[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 08-28-1999).]
Aug 28, 1999 | 11:37 am
#9
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,226
The above example is not a back-to-back, however, it is a "nested ticket" which is also subject to some rules. Basically, the philosophy is that you cannot overlap 2 discounted tickets. However, as others have stated YOW and YYZ are far enough apart, that you should be able to book all segments on one ticket and still receive the discounted, Saturday night stayover fares.
Regards,
Ken Hamer
Regards,
Ken Hamer
Aug 28, 1999 | 12:58 pm
#10
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: New York
Posts: 2,115
I just checked expedia, to see if it would let me book such a combo as one ticket.
I tried sept 17-20 as a milti-destination trip. Priced out to $827.
Toronto to Vancouver priced to $398, and
Vancouver to Ottawa priced to $421.
I see no problem booking it all as one ticket, with 4 legs.
I tried sept 17-20 as a milti-destination trip. Priced out to $827.
Toronto to Vancouver priced to $398, and
Vancouver to Ottawa priced to $421.
I see no problem booking it all as one ticket, with 4 legs.
Aug 28, 1999 | 3:09 pm
#11
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Tucson, Southern Arizona, North America, Western Hemisphere, The Earth, a small planet in the solar system. Previously OnePass Infinite Platinum Elite, now over entitled 1K
Posts: 2,293
I often use "nested tickets" to save money. Nested tickets are quite legal as opposed to "Back to back Tickets"
Often the combined TUS-LAX-NYC fares are significantly lower then TUS-NYC. I have had trips ticked on single and seperate tickets.
Once I saved over $700 with a 7 day advance purchase with the route: TUS-PHX-LAX-CMH-EWR, EWR-PHX-LAX-PHX-TUS. The trip was on one HP ticket, and I stayed on the same plane in and out of LAX!
I figure that I saved about $100 per hour lost on the indirect routing, save $$$ AND get more miles and segments - I love it!
Sometimes I travel on HP to LAX and CO to NYC, and have been able to get checked in (And upgraded) on both tickets in both Tucson and Newark.
Often the combined TUS-LAX-NYC fares are significantly lower then TUS-NYC. I have had trips ticked on single and seperate tickets.
Once I saved over $700 with a 7 day advance purchase with the route: TUS-PHX-LAX-CMH-EWR, EWR-PHX-LAX-PHX-TUS. The trip was on one HP ticket, and I stayed on the same plane in and out of LAX!
I figure that I saved about $100 per hour lost on the indirect routing, save $$$ AND get more miles and segments - I love it!
Sometimes I travel on HP to LAX and CO to NYC, and have been able to get checked in (And upgraded) on both tickets in both Tucson and Newark.
Aug 28, 1999 | 8:30 pm
#13
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: New York
Posts: 2,115
Another thing I've done is use partner airlines on the nesting.
My last trip from EWR to PHX I saved about 600 bucks(over the CO EWR-PHX cost) by stopping in LAX. I fly CO EWR-LAX, stayed the day in LA, met some friends for lunch, then flew AWA LAX-PHX(gotta love that 88 dollar roundtrip and get upgraded to first class) Total lost was less than half of the EWR-PHX flight.
Coming back I had a 3 hr layover and just relaxed at the President's club in LAX.
My last trip from EWR to PHX I saved about 600 bucks(over the CO EWR-PHX cost) by stopping in LAX. I fly CO EWR-LAX, stayed the day in LA, met some friends for lunch, then flew AWA LAX-PHX(gotta love that 88 dollar roundtrip and get upgraded to first class) Total lost was less than half of the EWR-PHX flight.
Coming back I had a 3 hr layover and just relaxed at the President's club in LAX.
Aug 28, 1999 | 11:27 pm
#14
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 3,709
I've done this several times, and am doing it to extremes in September. I need to be in New Orleans, Houston, Dallas and Alamosa, CO on the same trip.
I'm using Dallas as my "hub", then flying round-trips to MSY, then COS (and driving the 4(!) hours to Alamosa), then HOU.
I'm flying every segment of my trip. I have business to conduct at each leg. Finally, it is a BIG plus to use DFW as a travel point because I would lose a lot of time returning home, only to turn around and fly back.
Back-to-back ticketing is easy to prove an intent to defraud. Ditto for hidden-city ticketing.
There is no attempt to defraud here. You are trying to meet a schedule. So long as you fly every segment, I'd be hard pressed to think of the airline having any legitimate complaints.
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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."
I'm using Dallas as my "hub", then flying round-trips to MSY, then COS (and driving the 4(!) hours to Alamosa), then HOU.
I'm flying every segment of my trip. I have business to conduct at each leg. Finally, it is a BIG plus to use DFW as a travel point because I would lose a lot of time returning home, only to turn around and fly back.
Back-to-back ticketing is easy to prove an intent to defraud. Ditto for hidden-city ticketing.
There is no attempt to defraud here. You are trying to meet a schedule. So long as you fly every segment, I'd be hard pressed to think of the airline having any legitimate complaints.
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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."