Are bloggers ruining Flyertalk????
May 9, 2012, 11:06 am
#211
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NYC.
Programs: Hyatt Platinum, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold, MileagePlus Silver & Others.
Posts: 222
Thank you. Having been stalked in-person in 1995 based on 'net postings from 1994-1995, I'm a bit sensitized to stock internet trolling techniques, though I am aware that people sometimes fall into these patterns without recognizing them.
Essentially: this thread is a debate over information arbitrage. It's not a new debate, nor is it one that's going to end. There will always be information arbitrage, and there will always be debate over when and where it's appropriate to share information that benefits one sector of a community in preference to others.
Essentially: this thread is a debate over information arbitrage. It's not a new debate, nor is it one that's going to end. There will always be information arbitrage, and there will always be debate over when and where it's appropriate to share information that benefits one sector of a community in preference to others.
But yes, there are some stock internet tactics--another one being used is that anyone under a join date of "X" or a post count of "Y" has no place in the conversation, which is obviously a variation of the argument-to-authority tactic and just a generally well-known ad hominem to silence anyone who disagrees with the poster's point of view.
I actually don't see it as a debate. A debate, well-reasoned and courteous, would have been useful to the community. This started off, right from the get-go, as a lynch mob with the pitch-forks out and with the hypocrisy and the deceit flying fast and furious.
But you're right. It's an old argument and it'll go round and round. I'm sure this thread will die out shortly and in 6 months, we'll have the newest iteration of it.
May 9, 2012, 11:08 am
#212
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: CHA/TYS
Programs: The Mac Daddy of Heimlich County (and low-ball status)
Posts: 2,868
May 9, 2012, 11:08 am
#213
formerly known as Frugal Travel Guy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Greenville, SC
Programs: UA Gold, HH Gold, SPG Gold, Marriott Silver, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 1,925
My Unique Perspective
Upfront I will note:
1. My blog has been purchased by Internet Brands, owners of Flyertalk. As far as I know it is the only blog to date purchased from this niche. I have complete control over content of Frugal Travel Guy and am under no restrictions on the blog content. There are also no restrictions placed on me on what I contribute to Flyertalk.
2. I was interviewed by ABC Nightiline about our travel niche and exposed the niche to 4-5 million viewers in one evening.
3. I started with affiliate links in 2007 so am also probably the longest runner of affiliate links in the niche.
With that being said, I started my blog on October 27, 2007 after reading in USA Today about a lady that monetized her cooking blog with advertising. I immediately knew this was how I was going to spread all the information I had learned in my first six years on Flyertalk to more people than just my friends. My motives were dual. Spread the word and monetize if successful. It took readership to make it worthwhile. In the original days of the blog I earned 40 cents on a Restaurant.com $2 gift certificate. I kept writing and answering reader emails. It lasted that way until 2009 when I was finally approved for my first credit card links by Amex. Two full years of blogging and answering emails. In order to get a credit card company to approve your blog you needed readership and content worthy of their approval. Now, if you join BoardingArea.com you can use their collective readership to get approved right out of the gate. I know. I've have newbie bloggers tell me so.
In September of 2010 as a result of the financial crisis, credit card companies were starving for new applicants with good credit scores. They increased the earnings on credit card links significantly. (they are now moving back down somewhat). In the spring of 2011 I was approached by one independent blogger asking about affiliate links. He had a terrific blog with informative content and I told him where to get the info he needed. There were now two of us with affiliate links.
Not until the fall of 2011 did the other bloggers realize what was happening. The proliferation of blogs running affiliate links broke in one week with Lucky being first follwed by Gary. They were the only two that I knew of that had a readership sufficient to get approval to run affilate ads. That same week I heard the stories; "if I join BoardingArea I can get affiliate links" Now you know why there are so many bloggers running affiliate ads.
Have we ruined Flyertalk, heck no, we just condensed the information into short day to day pieces. Its not Flyertalk that created the frenzy of bloggers, its the company that got all the bloggers approved for running cc ads by joining BoardingArea. And as many of you have suggested, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And there is only so much news in a given day. You are now reading about 45 newpapers (or blogs) per day on the same topic.
Our collective readership is still less than that of Flyertalk. That information is publicly available. Blogs are monitored by the travel companies and so is Flyertalk. We have gone from a fraternity of 15,000 when I joined in July 2001 to a heathy community with 400,000 members and countless lurkers. It is our size that is killing deals quicker, not just the blogs. We have reached the critcal mass where everything is being watched. The companies that want our business now are the credit card companies. Look at page one of Milebuzz. It is credit cards, credit cards and more credit cards. That and the US Airways Grand Slam are the two biggies left.
Do blogers contribute to the space?
Absolutely. I'll point out my identifying my local branch of Suntrust Bank and there processing of 10 million Delta miles for my our readers. The sample reconsideration letters I've posted and the tricks I learned on churning in bulk from threads I read on Fatwallet looong before card churning became fashionable in this niche. I first churned cards for the interest arbitrage on the days of 0% balance transfers with no transfer fees. Many other bloggers have contributed information as well that was not gleaned from Flyertalk but was original thought and content.
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
My suggestion about bloggers remains the same as it always has: pick the few that provide you with content you want and don't read the rest. Why would you read or even bother to complain about the balance? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Just my personal opinion but I think what is hurting Flyertalk is the tone of some of the posts. My buddy Bikeguy illustrated it best to me with this quote from his Faces of Flyertalk post and I paraphrase:
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
1. My blog has been purchased by Internet Brands, owners of Flyertalk. As far as I know it is the only blog to date purchased from this niche. I have complete control over content of Frugal Travel Guy and am under no restrictions on the blog content. There are also no restrictions placed on me on what I contribute to Flyertalk.
2. I was interviewed by ABC Nightiline about our travel niche and exposed the niche to 4-5 million viewers in one evening.
3. I started with affiliate links in 2007 so am also probably the longest runner of affiliate links in the niche.
With that being said, I started my blog on October 27, 2007 after reading in USA Today about a lady that monetized her cooking blog with advertising. I immediately knew this was how I was going to spread all the information I had learned in my first six years on Flyertalk to more people than just my friends. My motives were dual. Spread the word and monetize if successful. It took readership to make it worthwhile. In the original days of the blog I earned 40 cents on a Restaurant.com $2 gift certificate. I kept writing and answering reader emails. It lasted that way until 2009 when I was finally approved for my first credit card links by Amex. Two full years of blogging and answering emails. In order to get a credit card company to approve your blog you needed readership and content worthy of their approval. Now, if you join BoardingArea.com you can use their collective readership to get approved right out of the gate. I know. I've have newbie bloggers tell me so.
In September of 2010 as a result of the financial crisis, credit card companies were starving for new applicants with good credit scores. They increased the earnings on credit card links significantly. (they are now moving back down somewhat). In the spring of 2011 I was approached by one independent blogger asking about affiliate links. He had a terrific blog with informative content and I told him where to get the info he needed. There were now two of us with affiliate links.
Not until the fall of 2011 did the other bloggers realize what was happening. The proliferation of blogs running affiliate links broke in one week with Lucky being first follwed by Gary. They were the only two that I knew of that had a readership sufficient to get approval to run affilate ads. That same week I heard the stories; "if I join BoardingArea I can get affiliate links" Now you know why there are so many bloggers running affiliate ads.
Have we ruined Flyertalk, heck no, we just condensed the information into short day to day pieces. Its not Flyertalk that created the frenzy of bloggers, its the company that got all the bloggers approved for running cc ads by joining BoardingArea. And as many of you have suggested, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. And there is only so much news in a given day. You are now reading about 45 newpapers (or blogs) per day on the same topic.
Our collective readership is still less than that of Flyertalk. That information is publicly available. Blogs are monitored by the travel companies and so is Flyertalk. We have gone from a fraternity of 15,000 when I joined in July 2001 to a heathy community with 400,000 members and countless lurkers. It is our size that is killing deals quicker, not just the blogs. We have reached the critcal mass where everything is being watched. The companies that want our business now are the credit card companies. Look at page one of Milebuzz. It is credit cards, credit cards and more credit cards. That and the US Airways Grand Slam are the two biggies left.
Do blogers contribute to the space?
Absolutely. I'll point out my identifying my local branch of Suntrust Bank and there processing of 10 million Delta miles for my our readers. The sample reconsideration letters I've posted and the tricks I learned on churning in bulk from threads I read on Fatwallet looong before card churning became fashionable in this niche. I first churned cards for the interest arbitrage on the days of 0% balance transfers with no transfer fees. Many other bloggers have contributed information as well that was not gleaned from Flyertalk but was original thought and content.
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
My suggestion about bloggers remains the same as it always has: pick the few that provide you with content you want and don't read the rest. Why would you read or even bother to complain about the balance? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Just my personal opinion but I think what is hurting Flyertalk is the tone of some of the posts. My buddy Bikeguy illustrated it best to me with this quote from his Faces of Flyertalk post and I paraphrase:
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
May 9, 2012, 11:17 am
#214
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY, United States
Programs: AA, BA, UA, Spirit, Delta, PC Plat, SPG Gold, HHonors Diamond, Club Carlson Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,735
May 9, 2012, 11:18 am
#215
Join Date: Jul 2001
Programs: Marriott LT Tit; Hyatt Explorist; Hilton CC Gold; IHG CC Plt; Hertz (MR) 5 star
Posts: 5,536
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNwbjcuQUv8
Don't ever rule out a MR. I remember doing a couple during a Double EQM promo so that I could get 1K status for the next year. I had several business trips scheduled for Europe and I wanted the 6 SWUs so it was well worth it.
On two different weekends, I left BWI early Saturday and returned early Sunday on the redeye. My flights went something like: BWI-DEN-ONT-SFO-FAT-LAX-BWI. They cost me ~$250 and netted me ~14K EQMs on each trip (28K total). They were well worth the two November weekends spent doing those trips because I got to enjoy business class multiple times going to Germany.
I made those MRs because of the knowledge I gained on FT. Anyone can do them but only a few will find gaining status in that manner worth the effort. Most don't find it useful.
Last edited by iflyjetz; May 9, 2012 at 12:11 pm
May 9, 2012, 11:34 am
#216
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,072
C'mon. With a small child, you need the ability to pull off and on the road and deal with situations. You need breaks on the child's schedule. Not on the airline's schedule. If there's some unavoidable reason the child must fly, fine. But to promote air travel as a healthy or pleasant experience for children is ridiculous. Here's a clue train: They're not screaming like that because they're happy!
May 9, 2012, 11:38 am
#217
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ICT
Programs: AA ExP
Posts: 1,860
Excellently put, ingy/FTG! ^
FTG is definitely at the top of the good blogs list in my book. He always shares the best CC deal whether or not it's an affiliate link. And I'm not aware that he's ever given a step by step on a killable deal.
FTG is definitely at the top of the good blogs list in my book. He always shares the best CC deal whether or not it's an affiliate link. And I'm not aware that he's ever given a step by step on a killable deal.
May 9, 2012, 11:42 am
#219
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: AL
Programs: All of the Above
Posts: 1,374
I am about to introduce you to the greatest deal of all time. It is going to revolutionize your life. It's called the automobile. Imagine. Instead of a screaming, miserable kid in an airport, their ears popping painfully as they mount into the skies at changing cabin pressure, you can travel to see grandma, the beach, and the trees IN YOUR OWN VEHICLE for a fraction of the price! You can stop whenever you like, and you can GO whenever you like. No standing in security line, no waiting at the gate, no Mr. Mommypoints sneaking off for 5 beers in the club room to escape the misery while you're stranded for yet another flight delay. You will stand amazed.
C'mon. With a small child, you need the ability to pull off and on the road and deal with situations. You need breaks on the child's schedule. Not on the airline's schedule. If there's some unavoidable reason the child must fly, fine. But to promote air travel as a healthy or pleasant experience for children is ridiculous. Here's a clue train: They're not screaming like that because they're happy!
C'mon. With a small child, you need the ability to pull off and on the road and deal with situations. You need breaks on the child's schedule. Not on the airline's schedule. If there's some unavoidable reason the child must fly, fine. But to promote air travel as a healthy or pleasant experience for children is ridiculous. Here's a clue train: They're not screaming like that because they're happy!
May 9, 2012, 11:46 am
#220
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott LT Titanium, Avis Chairman
Posts: 1,286
Just my personal opinion but I think what is hurting Flyertalk is the tone of some of the posts. My buddy Bikeguy illustrated it best to me with this quote from his Faces of Flyertalk post and I paraphrase:
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
"Answer other people's posts as if you were standing right in front of them. Would you be that rude in person?"
Hopefully not
May 9, 2012, 11:48 am
#221
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,072
Here is a good post and a good argument. I have bolded the best line in that part of the post I quoted, because it really speaks to me. Of course I am prejudiced because I have gotten much help and miles from reading the frugaltravelguy and I am a big fan. I also believe that if information is never shared, nobody ever learns anything, which is pretty counterproductive. A deal that gets used up before I get there is mathematically identical to the deal I never hear about. They both have an expected value of zero dollars to me. So why the perception that I'm somehow worse off in the first case? Is it just envy of the other guy who did get the deal?
It's the same argument we used to have with blackjack. How to count cards was published by Ed Thorpe around 1960. The story of early team play was published by Ken Uston sometime in the 1970s or maybe early 80s. And yet the game went on into the 21st century. It took 50 years for the opportunity to go away, even though people were constantly screaming at some of the teams that we were burning out the game. 99% of the people will read a book or a blog and do nothing. You can have all the information out there, nice and neat. What is easier than hi/lo? Yet millions and millions of people paid to fly to Vegas, paid to stay in hotels, paid to eat food, and then lost money too FOR DECADES when there was absolutely no reason for it. The majority of people will never bother to take action. You can't spoonfeed the helpless.
I strongly suspect that most deals are "killed" when marketing has spent what they planned to spend on the deal. At least that's the way it worked with the casino industry. Has nothing to do with bloggers. But it's human nature for people to point fingers at each other.
Geese only lay eggs up to a certain age. To assume you can kill the golden goose is hubris in my humble opinion. The goose always had a finite lifespan. It was gonna die sometime. To take or give credit for the death of the goose is like the rooster crying at sunrise. Oh yeah, the sun never woulda got off the horizon if the rooster didn't speak up!
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
It's the same argument we used to have with blackjack. How to count cards was published by Ed Thorpe around 1960. The story of early team play was published by Ken Uston sometime in the 1970s or maybe early 80s. And yet the game went on into the 21st century. It took 50 years for the opportunity to go away, even though people were constantly screaming at some of the teams that we were burning out the game. 99% of the people will read a book or a blog and do nothing. You can have all the information out there, nice and neat. What is easier than hi/lo? Yet millions and millions of people paid to fly to Vegas, paid to stay in hotels, paid to eat food, and then lost money too FOR DECADES when there was absolutely no reason for it. The majority of people will never bother to take action. You can't spoonfeed the helpless.
I strongly suspect that most deals are "killed" when marketing has spent what they planned to spend on the deal. At least that's the way it worked with the casino industry. Has nothing to do with bloggers. But it's human nature for people to point fingers at each other.
Geese only lay eggs up to a certain age. To assume you can kill the golden goose is hubris in my humble opinion. The goose always had a finite lifespan. It was gonna die sometime. To take or give credit for the death of the goose is like the rooster crying at sunrise. Oh yeah, the sun never woulda got off the horizon if the rooster didn't speak up!
If there was ever an opportunity to potentially ruin the niche it was with the ABC Nightline piece where we were exposed to 4-5 million viewers in one night. In reality, it changed nothing. Everyone of us knows that 99% of the public just doesn't get it. Its taken 11 years to increase of readership to a measily 400,000 when each and every one of the "untaught" would love to see the world the way we do. My readership bumped for two days after the ABC piece and then returned to normal.
May 9, 2012, 11:51 am
#222
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11
Did anyone read the twitter feed of The Points Guy and Gary Leff? Looked like they were competing fast to get the same tweets out within seconds of each other
May 9, 2012, 11:52 am
#223
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: HNL
Posts: 781
IMO, this is what's really hurting FT. The blogs are simply summaries and aggregates of the information found here. But the nasty tones, snide remarks and hoity-toity attitudes towards newbies are the most detracting things about FT. And it's especially bad if you head on down to the OMNI forums. Don't even get me started on that.
May 9, 2012, 11:56 am
#224
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: CHA/TYS
Programs: The Mac Daddy of Heimlich County (and low-ball status)
Posts: 2,868
May 9, 2012, 11:57 am
#225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,072
You can avoid OMNI but there's a hazing culture at FT that always bothers me, and you just have to have a sense of humor about it. It's pretty bad in the mileage run forum. If people want to have their top secret magic decoder ring mission impossible special group, then IMHO they should have it on a listserv or in a PM (private message) circle. It's just mean-spirited to dangle out teasers and then yank them back when the noobs ask questions. Some (many) people can't even load 60 page threads. Now people are freaking out because a few people got sick of the hazing and posted their own information which gives step by step suggestions. What did they think would happen?
IMO, this is what's really hurting FT. The blogs are simply summaries and aggregates of the information found here. But the nasty tones, snide remarks and hoity-toity attitudes towards newbies are the most detracting things about FT. And it's especially bad if you head on down to the OMNI forums. Don't even get me started on that.