The Flying Glass Ceiling
 

I thought this might spark an interesting discussion.

[PLEASE keep in mind the following commentary is a general one -- there always are exceptions.]

In the U.S. business world, there is a phrase illustrating the paucity of women in senior executive positions (e.g., CEO, President, etc.) -- this would be 'the glass ceiling.' A woman can see through it yet doesn't often break through it and, because it is transparent, many folk would have us believe it doesn't exist. As evidence of the phrase's veracity, this statistic usually is cited: only two companies on the Fortune 500 list sport female CEOs (this is not to say we're poor sports, heh-heh).

The lengthy preamble above serves as introduction to what I call 'the flying glass ceiling' -- that is, the paucity of women in first class on U.S. domestic flights. I believe the two ceilings are related, on the following grounds.

First, however, the exceptions: most Hawaii flights are split fairly evenly between the genders (vacationing couples). Red-eye flights seem often to have a number of women in First (these seats not being so hotly contested). Flights before and after major holidays usually see a more even gender distribution in First.

1. Many occupants of domestic US first class cabins are there as a consequence of upgrades attained through FF programs (either miles or coupons). Because the latter typically are allocated on the basis of mileage status, it is more likely such seats go to males because men typically have higher mileage status. Whilst it is true I lack concrete evidence of this I think we all know intuitively this is true.

2. The Flying Glass Ceiling is a corollary of the Glass Ceiling in this way: many US companies typically fund first-class (even at discounted corporate) rates only for the most senior executives . . . who are overwhelming male.

Annecdotal backup: Herewith gender counts on my last six non-holiday, non-red-eye domestic US flights:

SFO-LAX: eight seats in first class; all men.
TPA-IAD: 24 seats in first class; three women, 21 men
IAD-SJC: 12 first class seats; one woman (moi), 11 men
TPA-DEN: 12 first class seats; two women, ten men
DEN-SFO: 12 first class seats; three women, nine men
LAX-SFO: eight seats in first class; one woman (not moi), 7 men

My last two red-eye LAX-TPA flights: a) 12 seats in first with 5 women and 7 men; b) 12 seats in first with 4 women; 5 men and three empty seats.

My last two flights to Hawaii were on a DC-10 and a 747 and they had so many seats in first I didn't bother to count but the gender mix was pretty even (a little bit like Noah's Ark -- wait, hey you rabbits, wait up; only two, only two).

Comments?

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

[This message has been edited by KatW (edited 01-27-99).]

I am now typing with my 10' pole, because that's as close as I need to be to this one.
However, somewhere in the mix (not related to glass ceilings) is a percentage of female vs. male flyers (frequent or not). That percentage is/has been predominantly male. It is now becoming more balanced and I think we will find that, in the very near future, more of those FC upgrade seats will be occupied by females (Marvella excluded).

Take a close look at the people here on FT, of the ones we can gender identify, most are of the male gender. Could that be because there are more male gender flyers? Or, is it because female genders just do not post to any kind of bulletin board? I believe the answer is that there are more male flyers, and therefore more airplane seats are occupied by males than females. My statistical sample has a plus or minus 4.2% error.

Actually, the clubs (AC, RCC) seem to be even more overwhelmingly male. I always stick out in a lounge - (quite young, casually-dressed, non-white male). I could also make an argument that I've been the only minority in First Class on my last three flights that I've gotten upgraded (YYZ-YVR, SFO-YYZ, YYZ-SEA) - and there have been very few women on any of these flights in First including red-eyes.

I agree with most all the comments here and would offer one additional observation. Female FFs (Flyertalk members excluded, of course) do not seem to pursue the "mileage craze" as much as male FFs. I have heard comments from a number of female colleagues who travel quite frequently, that they "cannot be bothered" with tracking miles/points. While they gladly offer up their FF#s at check-in, they do not seem to pursue many bonus opportunities. Anyone else observe a similar pattern?

interesting point, mileking. When trading stamps were popular in the '50s-60's, they skewed heavily female. Now ff miles, which are supposedly the "green stamps of the '90s" are more avidly sought by males. Interesting turnabout. The big travelers in my office are mostly male, and are pretty rabid about their miles, and more rabid than the few female big travelers.

While I agree there are more men as frequent travelers in the skies today, that is a product of the work environment for the past oh, 20 years, not whether women are less interested in the programs, themselves. Speaking as a woman that has traveled most of her professional life (and is a high end FF in many programs), I can say that most of my female peers do not enjoy the travel for two reasons. One, of course, is the impact of travel on their families, and the second is the abominable treatment afforded many women by the travel industry. Here are a few I have experienced in the past three months (if I dug back any further in the past you would be reading all night!!!):

Continental Airlines (Gold Elite): On 3 flights in 2 weeks, I was in FC (upgrades). The FA passed by myself in the first row to ensure all the men had their coats hung. When I spoke up asking for some attention, I was told they would "get right to me". Granted I may have been dressed casually (as is the norm for many), but so were half the men in that cabin! On one flight I was even told there was no more room for coats and I was the 2nd person in the cabin! During the flights it seems that men never have a trouble getting refills on their drinks, but I am rarely offered anything.

Hyatt (Diamond): Now here they offered me ground floor smoking accomodations after I had already checked in through 1-800-checkin. Funny, they lost my reservation, but the gentleman ahead of me had no problem obtaining a room on a higher level. After explaining I did not feel safe on the ground floor, the clerk shrugged and told me there was nothing she could do. After 30 minutes of arguing with her and the manager, I contacted the Hyatt reservations center, who managed to find me a suite to stay in.

Now I can go on and on, but the truth is, that most of the service personnel are not trained to appropriately handle female travelers, and hotels are far from security consious. I revel in utilizing my FF points and often take exotic vacations with my husband, but I have to say that I receive the best treatment when I am with him (and he has no status).

Any comments ladies????

I too agree with the treatment of women vs. men by FA and hotel clerks. Most FA and hotel clerks are female....so with a little kindness from the opposite sex (maybe a smile or a compliment) the male receives better treatment. (Upgraded rooms, etc). I too have witnessed first hand the difference when traveling with my husband vs. by myself

OOOh, Gabbie, did you hit the nail on the head. I always thought I was being paranoid or imagning something because the FAs seemed to not want to hang up my jacket and managed to get the guys the drinks while I sat there. Just try to get eye contact with many FAs to let them know that you didn't get silverware or you'd like a refill. It's like being an invisible person. Invisible passengers and glass ceilings? Nice metaphor or simile.

I do not think any female gender posting on this thread will get any disagreement from any of the male genders posting here. We're among friends when we discuss items here and really there is no right or no wrong, just opinions. While I do have a problem with the manner in which female travelers are treated by some of airlines and hotels mentioned above, the problem will not get solved here. We are aware. If one wants to vent frustration, fine. That's also part of why we're here

So, let's vent our frustrations and go ahead and "Preach to the Choir". We do understand.

Thanks Jaws!!!!

At least this is one forum where I feel a member of the clique!!! And thanks everyone for letting me get many years of frustration off my chest.

Somewhat related, and a bit historical:

Back in the days of old (35+ years ago) United used to openly advertise in their timetables and flight schedules 'men only' flights, primarily using their French-built Caravelle jets. Most of their flights were between business centers (i.e. JFK-ORD). Today, this practice wouldn't even be tolerated (and I believe it is also illegal, since it violates the Civil Rights Act).

This is not to excuse poor treatment. I wouldnt accept it and dont think anyone else should. Just some thoughts on why it might be.

Several times I've heard FA's talking to each other. From my informal unscientific
easedropping:

FA's don't like extra work(most of us don't)
so they like people who travel alot, they are less work, they know where to go, they know the ropes. The conventional wisdom(whatever good it is) is that many women are inexperienced and thus more work).

This may have been true 15 or 20 years ago,
but old impressions die hard.

As for dressing casually, well I fly that way almost half the time and I havent noticed a difference in treatment.

It would be interesting to video and study FA/passenger. All the combinations with respect to gender to see if there is a pattern.

What about Male FAs. Do they give better service to female passengers. Does sexual
orientation come into play?

Freud could have a field-day with this topic.

On a serious note, maybe its up to us guys
to take action here. Show the world the Chivalry isnt dead.

Guys, Next time you see a woman passenger near you getting sub standard service in relation to yourself say something to the FA. Of course that raises the issue. Would that be viewed as patronizing or perhaps a lame pickup attempt? Would the woman passenger be insulted?

There are so many possible issues, are women
FA's threatened by women first class passengers? Does a sucessful business woman make them feel.... I think I better stop.

I agree with Boomer. I have seen this treatment myself, and felt funny about saying anything about it. Next time I will not be so shy. It is a shame that this still goes on today.

As for ratios, I have never really even thought to notice. But my gut feeling is that it has to do with men being more concerned about status than women in general. But that opinion probably says more about me than it actually does about the situation...

Jaws - Catman may have two ties, but do you have multiple genders (all of them male) ... ?

OK "Tree"--The Catcop will have you incarcerated for the above comment. You may even have to spend time on the MTA, where there is absolutely no empathy for any gender. Do "trees" have a gender? Or, are they both?

Singular Jaws, unlike yourself...

Jaws >> Take a close look at the people here on FT, of the ones we can gender identify,

A little like kittens? Impossible to tell, and when you guess you're usually wrong??

In my experience with domestic flight attendants, the bottom line may be this: male or female doesn't matter... they've got plenty of sub-standard treatment to go around.

KatW: On a point of order the phrase "Glass Ceiling" was actuallt coined by Marian Wells at a speach to the IoD (Institute of Directors) in London.

Ms. Wells (as I will call her) is of course British.

So not only is your statement "U.S. Business world" misleading but I would question how you can have a business WORLD linked to one country!?

For those of you who don't realise this is a clear attempt on my part to change from a 'sexist' thread to a 'nationalist' thread. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
MF

As a sweeping generality, the disparity in treatment of men and women in first and biz classes certainly is something I've noticed. Like TexasFlyer, the first several times I was accorded such I thought I must have been imagining it (it's often difficult for me to believe someone is being out-and-out rude to me!) but after the tenth, twentieth and thirtieth times the pattern clearly was discernable and very real.

What's odd about my own reaction is that I'm a bit of power-house . . . I steam right along rarely acknowledging barriers in my path. But, I've never figured out how to counter effectively unequal treatment in the skies. Ultimately, of course, my main goal in air travel is to get on and off the plane with as little aggravation as possible. I don't want to be a raging ..... yet I loathe collaborating in my own ill treatment.

megamiles reminds me gender isn't alone as a bias.

Jaws -- yes indeedy, there are male and female trees (even, gasp, hermaphrodite trees). Hollies (ilex), for example, require both sexes for fruiting. I'd tread lightly with baobab . . . that's one big tree (metaphorically, of course).

I've got to say I am much enheartened by this boards willingness to hear and vent this discussion. Finest kind of company!

Merry -- Your point of order well taken. Interesting to know the origin of 'glass ceiling.' My hat is off to Wells. Actually, my specificity with regard to 'U.S. business world' was meant to reflect direct knowledge since it is within that realm (?) I function.

I haven't flown in elite cabins abroad much but I've gleaned from this board (including your postings) that outside the U.S., first class can be quite special. So, it occurred to me not to make assumptions; hence, the focus on my direct experience.

Boomer: I for one would appreciate a chivalrous word from a male co-passenger on my behalf to a FA if I were getting sub-par attention. Of course, many of my gender would likely bite your head off for the gesture, no matter how sincere you intention. I sometimes pity men for the double bind women put them through when they attempt to be gentlemanly: ****ed if they do, ****ed if they don't.

My experience in FC has been limited to travel this past year, (and a long time ago when I was a little girl and my dad was an air traffic controller when I got to fly FC A LOT). I have noticed differences in FA attentiveness but not based on gender or attire. The levels of service seem to be a function of the airline: Delta's has been tops; United's sucks.

Samantha

essxjay:

Mine faith in hath been restoreth.

If you happen to see a guy sitting in first class with his head bitten off, just stop by and say hi http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I could not respond immediately to KatW's post because honestly I have not paid attention to the treatment between travelers and airline workers. This is an excellent topic (and as my friend BOOMER suggested: a good study for a psychology student.)

But upon reflection: sometimes I see those who get the better service are of the OPPOSITE gender ot the F-A (male F-A's to
Female flyers... and visa versa.)

Frankly, all I want from an F-A is to be courteous, helpful when needed and dont' be afraid to smile.

I believe there is a disparity between treatment of the sexes in First/business.
I don't think its fair, in 1999 it seems stupid to treat a woman first class passenger differently from a man. They both have paid probably a high price for the ticket. They both have traveled too many miles, have too much work to do, leaving families and cats behind. They all seek two basic and similar goals: to get their work done and to GO HOME!!!! CATMAN

While this is only a small part of this thread, I notice a big difference in the way I am treated based on the way I am dressed. I like to travel in jeans and a SF49ers sweatshirt. So what! Does that mean I should be treated any differently? I actually had a UA FA make me prove who I was on board the plane last week because I did "not look like a typical 1K".

Enough rant. I understand and agree totally with this thread, but the issue is not limited to women alone.

Auh2o:

I would have told the FA, sure I'll prove who I am, and can I have the exact spelling of you name. I wouldn't want to get your name spelled wrong when I write the President of the airline to him what a lousy FA you are.

Thanks, guys, for your support. And thanks to all of you for making me realize that I wasn't thinking it was just me in terms of how I was being treated. And I would very much appreciate having one of you guys (youse guys, Catman?) speak up in my behalf. It would be a real giggle if a bunch of us were on the same flight and had some rude FAs and the first time they slighted the sisters, the whole cabin erupted. Uppity Sisters (and Brothers) Unite!

I must reply to this post. I am one of those women travelers who dresses to be comfortable when I fly. I go to the airport in jeans, sneakers, a fleece jacket, and a back pack. I get right into the elite priority line or preferred line, etc. Once I flash that card and they upgrade me, I feel like a queen from there on in. I pre-board, the FAs treat me great. I am usually one of the only passengers that makes it through all of the services. Even if I am the only one having dessert and coffee, the FAs treat me great. They call me by name, etc.

What I do not like is the look that I get from other passengers. They are the rude ones. Not a lot of people like to smile when they travel. The looks that I get sometimes are very condescending.

First Class dress could be it's own thread.

If I am going on a day-trip, or off the plane to a meeting, I'm in my business suit on-board. I HATE flying that way. If I can possibly manage to get to a hotel first, I fly in jeans or chinos and a golf shirt or flannel buttondown. I've never received poor service or dirty looks because of this. I'm neat, clean, my requests are polite and respectful, and I'm treated well.

What I can't get over is the people in FC (usually men) who have their shirts half out of their pants, change pullover sweaters in the aisle, smell like they've never seen a shower, or sit and assume that the entire row (my seat and armrests and tray area included) is THEIR desk and begin to sort tax receipts written on napkins and bottlecaps.

How do these people get into FC? There must be a lot of eccentrics out there.

A couple of things I have to respond to..

NJ David... you hit on another issue with me... if we dress clean and neat, then why can't we wear chinos or jeans and poloshirts (or to Hawaii my Hawaiian shirt) and my Red Green Show Ballcap and my Converse White HighTops. (Yes in the business I wear the suit and tie and wingtips or Loafers... Unless like you Dave I get the time to go to the hotel and change like
Superman.)

I have seen 1K's and other elites in first
who dress worse than me on Friday's (my sweatshirt and jeans day at work.)

Hate dressing up unless it's work or taking HOlly out or a special occassion or I'm meeting a good friend or special lady for the first time!

About the talking/smiling/contact thing... I am very very shy (like my cat, Eddie.) It takes me awhile to warm up to people, and I don't want to initate conversation for fear
teh person next to me would tell me to go jump off (I will not use THAT work.) I normally wait for the person next to me to say the first word, I chime in something and if there's a conversation then fine. If not, fine.

Some people in first give me a look like I don't belong there. I did not know that first class was restricted to only the allegedly beautiful and rich (with drooping pants, shirts sticking out, and shoes off, coming aboard drunk and passing out, saying its their right because they've paid 25 hundred dollars for a first class ticket.)

They are unlike all of us, who dress well, will stick up for our friends if they are in trouble, are smart, friendly and all have a lot of class, whether we wear a Brooks Brothers suit, polo shirt, 49-er sweatshirt... or a very dashing, colorful and sexy looking Hawaiian shirt. CATMAN

Now I know where I have seen Catman, as verified by he following Catman quote:

"Some people in first give me a look like I don't belong there. I did not know that first class was restricted to only the allegedly beautiful and rich (with drooping pants, shirts sticking out, and shoes off, coming aboard drunk and passing out, saying its their right because they've paid 25 hundred dollars for a first class ticket.)"

JAWs

Sisters and brothers - what a provacative (sp?) thread!!! I am a newly-minted FF and am just beginning to enjoy FC - however - I am youthful in appearance and female and get the dirtiest looks from the grumpy old men in suits (the other folks in FC) and for the first time - got at-ti-tude from a FA when she was being sweet as honey to the others in FC (all grumpy old men in blue suits) - so - although I will continue to dress casually (sweats this am on a Sat flight) - I will also continue to try to make eye contact and say hello to the FA as I board - but I will now have a new way to amuse myself - I will be counting the other travelers by gender, age, appearance and will try to see if I can get back to you all with some sociological findings on the treatment of passengers in FC!!

Thank you Gabbysz. Your post is an amazing coincidence. I was just preparing to write UA my very first complaint letter telling them that they need to train their FAs to treat female biz travelers as well as they treat our male counterparts.

On my most recent flights, I have had my food rudely "dumped" on my tray while the man sitting across the aisle was pampered to no end. I've been passed over for drink orders, refills, etc.. I end up hanging up my own coat about 50% of the time. The worst part is the "attitude" some FAs have about women in biz/fc. You can physically feel it and it definitely makes my upgrade experience less appealing.

there is, of course, the reality that more men travel on business than women (or so it seems), which likely contributes to the negative ratio. as for F/A attitude, it seems (however simplistic this might sound) that some women just do not like to serve other women. it's an ego thing. when my wife travels alone she frequently has a bad experience, however if she is with me, for soeme reason the cabin staff is pleasant. in general, service on board is lousy. I travel mostly in first class (thanks to super elite status on 2 carriers), and often refer to myself as the "stealth" passenger. they go right by me as though the row was empty. and then there's getting a coat hung up........

Auh2o....I too had to "prove" my seat assigment(on CO). The FA thought she was slick by asking me (the only female in FC) if she could see a copy of my stub to view how many miles we would be credited for the flight. Why? Because a male across the aisle from me was inputting the mileage into his laptop and didn't have his?!! Now, granted I do not work in the aviation industry, but I would bet my favorite living creature (my cat) that FA's have that type of info readily available to them without having to ask me!!

I'm wondering if women who travel international business and first class are treated any differently (and more fairly) then in U-S domestic? Any insight, observations on this.

Again, I think it's stupid that F-A's would have the attitude to treat their opposite sex
as "COACH" class citizens.

IN my case, if I don't dress or look like a 250K a year businessman then sometimes I end
up hanging up my own coat (which I don't mind) or waiting for meals or drinks.

Generally it's a mix of male and female F-A's who treat me like a "COACH" class flyer. Unless they are cat lovers who see my Harrod's cat bag or the cat hair on my jacket. Then I'm set!

OMNI to TravelTooMuch: one of the basic rules of cat owners is NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT YOUR CAT UP AS A BET. DON"T
UNDERESTIMATE THE AWARENESS of THE CAT.

Although it's nice that you consider your cat your most prized possession. My YAZ & EDDIE
are the first things I'd grab in case of fire! CATMAN

I will add that it has been my experience, too, that FC is 90% male, but allow me to share this story about the last female I sat next to in FC.

We were in the bulkhead A / C seats and the overhead space above our row and the next two rows back were full or reserved for airline apparatus. Since there was no space other a small foot area in front of us, she could not place her brief case there.

It took no fewer than four FA's to convince her that someone will "pass the case" forward to her so she won't have to wait for the entire plane to empty before she was able to head to the fourth row overhead to pick up her case. Frankly, I was blown away by her attitude that no one would help nor did she want any.

In my case, I would feel comfortable asking someone to pass something forward or handing something to someone who couldn't reach it themselves.

Catman:

You asked whether things are any better in international business class. Unfortunately, based on my data points I would have to say that they are not. For example, my fiancee flew from SFO to HKG last week in business class on United. When she arrived, she was absolutely LIVID about the way she had been neglected while the businessmen in the seats surrounding her were pampered.

Apparently she was offered beverage service only twice during the 15 hour flight while the men in front of her were given unlimited refills. When she finally asked for a refill of her Port, the FA made a catty remark ;-) along the lines of: "Oh, the lady likes her liquor!"

HKF

This was an intersting business travel point to me, and I have to say I think the situatio reflects business in America. Meaning?? That there will be more and more women in F class, and fewer men in F class. I think that as more women executives come into the ranks breaking their own glass ceilings at work there will be an equal representation in F class. There will be fewer men in F class, and fewer people in F class as businesses try to cut costs.

My wife an exec. with a bank always goes F class. I asked her if she felt discriminated against. She said, "No, but it would be nice if they put some nice wines back in F class." Meaning? We, all us Fflyers, are receiving it from the airlines where the sun don't shine...

I think that, while the current situation doesn't represent a gender utopia -- enough women are on the rise that we should not be concerned with the current mix of F class people.

Another point, how many of us have turned down F class and kept the cash. We offer our employees (an 80% refund on the difference between C and Q class for taking economy). Most don't take it, but some do. Looking over travel expenses I've noticed that more women in our company take this than the men. Of course, the women have extra money to enjoy their destination after work...Oh well, too much to think about now.

Phil

Weekend trip Report: NYC to LA
Just returned from a short getaway with my husband in LA. We booked the following:
EWR-LAX-EWR on CO (Gold Elite Status)
Avis rental car (Preferred Select)
One Night at LAX Hilton (Gold VIP)
Van Gogh Package at Park Hyatt in Century City (Platinum Status)

Continental Flights: Buying cheapo airfares ($285 return)we were luckily upgraded in both directions, so I conducted an experiment that my husband willingly observed. Upon boarding, noone took my coat, but my husband's was almost ripped out of his hand as he boarded the plane! During the flight, the FA asked him if he wanted the seals broken on his liquor bottles or not, so he could just take the bottle with him if he chose. My husband was asked if he wanted wine with dinner, but my tray arrived with no wine glass and no request if I wanted wine.

Avis car rental: Here my husband knows what to do, he hands me all the heavy luggage, and the driver always lifts it into the van. When my husband carries it, the driver never helps. Chivalry is never dead at Avis! Although I booked a super cheap rate at Avis ($22/day for a full size) they upgraded me to Grand Prix GT with leather interior(advertised at $39/day)

Hilton: Stayed here for double/double promotion and super cheap corporate rate. Checked in at the front desk and requested upgrade to Towers based on confirmable certificate. Initially clerk did not give it to me and I had to argue with her for 2-3 minutes before she provided it. Also did want to take my CO number or Avis bonus points, again had to argue with her. Did not feel comfortable after this exchange and double checked with Towers concierge and lo and behold my CO number and Avis points were not in the computer. Towers concierge corrected my record.
Hilton then lost our rental car keys 30 minutes before we had to go to Beverly Hills for dinner at Spagos. When I called the concierge and requested that the hotel transport us to the restaurant, I was told to talk to the valet manager. When my husband called and talked to him, we were met downstairs by the manager and taxied to and from the restaurant. Our valet parking was also comped for the stay.

Not that I want to harp on the subject, but the above is a humorous account of our weekend jaunt. I must say, by now, my husband and I know how to play off each other and play the system the way we need to, in our own best interests. It's sad that we have to do that, no?

The rest of the stay was relatively uneventful. However, I can recommend the Van Gogh show to anyone and the Amex packages are definitely worth the cost.

[This message has been edited by gabbysz (edited 02-01-99).]