Recent event - An illegal procedure?
 

**Mods - Please move it to the right section if it's not here

I stopped at a Shell station to fill up on gas half way from my house to the airport one early morning last week. It was like 5am. I was the only one there.

I went inside to pay with cash. The cashier (a young man) asked if I had Air miles card, to which I answered no. That's when I saw him do something suspicious - He picked up another air miles card right next to the barcode scanner and scanned it...

It's safe to assume that was his card. Now if he did that with me, we can all assume that he's done it with others. Seriously, that's racking up some massive points!

Is that legal?

On a side note, a close relative of mine has had an air miles card that he's used for the past 15 years for groceries, dry cleaning and gas. He has 5500 points. At 20$/1 point, he's spent 110k to get that amount of points.

Wonder how long it would take this guy at this rate??? :rolleyes:

Phil

It may be against the mileage program's T&C, but it is probably not illegal. Of course we'd need more details to know for sure.

He's ripping off his employer, though, who has to pay the credit card fees on that purchase.

Mike

Not really MR Discussion.

I got friendly with a US Speedway clerk ans was told they have percentage goals to reach regarding transactions with a loyalty card. If the customer was not inclined to signup they did scan an unregistered one off the application pile. Whoever signed up got a nice surprise in their balance. Most likely the clerk didn't feel like giving the full sales push at 5AM.

Had something similar happen at dm - a drugstore here in Germany. The cashier asked if I had a payback card and inspite of me showing and her scanning it she scanned another barcode. On questioning her it turns out she registered me for the 5x promo that was running at the time (for which I had registered). Her supervisor had told her to register everyone to avoid discussions later when people whine that their 5x promo points didn't post.

That aside, the loyalty programs do some data mining to check if there are employees scanning their own cards over and over at the same vending point more than a feasible amount of times a day @:-)

Please follow this thread in Miles Buzz.

--jpdx, MR Moderator

Well if the station ever looks closely at the records, the clerk is in for a federal indictment and a lost job I would think.

I would think that the station would have software to autocatch such abuse (or the clerks cc co would be like hmmm how much gas can someone buy...'

Hey at 5% cash back on many cards u can see the attraction

I think the Costco Amex capped their gas purchase rebates in the last year or two ....

I'm confused :confused:... No longer confused thanks to the post by QBK.

You are making the assumption that the employee is using the same card over and over. It is legally possible for the employee to have dozens of cards and dozens of authorized users with dozens of names making detection difficult by mining data. A camera over the register might be the way to catch this situation since the transaction records can be gamed.:cool:

@aubreyfromwheaton and @rc408: Air Canada's Aeroplan program does things a bit differently. They offer an "Air Miles" card. It's not a credit card -- it's just a piece of plastic linked to your Aeroplan account. Various retailers offer miles (at a very low rate, like 1 mile per $20) for shopping with them.

I'm almost certain this is what the OP is talking about.

The closest U.S. parallel is probably the various airline shopping malls, where you can get miles just for routing your online purchase (e.g., Barnes and Noble) through the airline portal. Doesn't matter what credit card you use.

So it's not like the gas station attendant was doing anything funny with anybody's credit card (nor taking miles that the OP was entitled to). He was just racking up (very slowly) extra bonus miles via Aeroplan's affinity program. Ethically questionable? Maybe. But very probably not illegal, since his actions don't hurt the customer.

Thank you for the clarification. I was begining to think I was missing something (or it was a troll post:D)

Calm down people, don't accuse this guy of ripping people off (other than Air Miles maybe) and doing illegal things without knowing what Air Miles even is. Air Miles is a Canadian retail loyalty programme found at many service stations, supermarkets, etc. The cashier did everything as normal, but when he asked the customer if he had a loyalty card and they didn't, he probably swiped his own. Air Miles is independent from all of these companies so the clerks who scan the cards at retail places have no need to promote them. The customer paid for their own fuel, he simply collected the "unused" miles, which as said typically accrue at a paltry 1 mile per $20 spent. (However, short-haul redemptions start at around 1k miles) Air Miles is not going to be happy about this, but he didn't hurt the customer or his employer in any way. Actually, this is quite ingenious... this guy must get quite a few free flights a year on this, particularly if there's a 10x miles promo or something going on.

This isn't Aeroplan or credit card related at all.
Yes, you can use an Aeroplan card at many retail places to earn miles in Canada as well (usually 1 mile per $ spent). This is actually quite disliked by people who actually fly AC for their miles.

The thing is that someone must pay for those points/miles. Ain't nothing free in the mileage/points game.

Yes, he is ripping off Air Miles in a miniscule way, but doing MRs and mini-RTW award redemptions are not exactly playing in the spirit of the game either.

What Federal crime do you contend has been committed?

Oops, sorry, my bad. Thanks for the correction. After three years living in Canadia, I should have figured that out. Probably would have if I'd ever gotten an Aeroplan account (instead of just crediting everything to UA).

Air Miles is pretty much a worthless programme anyways. Absolutely horrendous earning and redemption rates.

If everyone followed "the spirit of the game", we'd all be paying $800 B fares to fly from Chicago to Milwaukee, then spending 100,000 DL Skymiles to redeem for a high-award from Tulsa to Atlanta... one way. :rolleyes:;)

Personally, I think what the clerk did is pretty ingenious. Next time if you get the same guy, ask if he's a FT'er.

I don't "contend" anything. IANAL and this is not legal advice. I know nothing.

but some federal crimes that he may be committing are listed in this outstanding legal source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_fraud

or this:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html

If the card is swiped in one state, and the info goes to another state, and it's a fraudulent transaction?

http://www.lawyers.ca/statutes/crimi...nada_theft.htm

IANAL

Exactly. Someone is paying for these miles - in this case, the employer, Shell, would be. I have no idea for sure, but would suspect that this would probably be both against the Air Miles terms of use, as well as whatever papers the employee signed when they were hired.

On the other hand, wonder if this is technically any different from a Safeway, Kroger, or etc. employee scanning their own card to give a customer a discount. I've seen this happen countless times, particularly at Safeway from several associates. Which makes me wonder if it is actually an employee swiping their own card, or there really is a "courtesy card" that the cashier can use for those who "forget" their card. Really, this can't be helping the store. Sure, it gives the customer a discount, but what they really want is the data that can be tied to a customer, and they ain't getting it, even if they are legitimately swiping a "courtesy card."

How can it be credit card fraud when the clerk did the transaction as normal with the customer's credit card?

unethical...yes, against program rules...yes, illegal...don't think so.

laundering points/$ across state lines

I really can't find this very unusual behaviour - same thing happend to me lots of times in the US and the UK in stores with some sort of loyalty programm that I didn't participate in. Sometimes these things even trigger discounts for you as a customer. We don't know if the card the guy used was his personal card or one belonging to the store/owner and that he was ordered to use it when a customer doesn't have a card themselves.

Don't see why this is an issue? It sounds like those supermarket loyalty card. They don't care if I scan my cards when my friends are paying.

A point reward card holds a difference than a loyalty card at your local supermarket. The point reward program is posting points to the cust. account for the purchase, These points are paid for by the company using the cards for incentive, (In this case shell)
IE I charge a cust of mine 1000.00 on his credit card I make 1000.00 (Minus my monthly fee I pay for charging the card) If I charge a cust 1000.00 on his southwest airlines credit card I get 970.00... Just an example however you see someone is paying for this jackwagon to get "free" miles

Thanks for explaining -- I too was wondering.

A similar thing could be done in the US with the "miles for groceries" type programs. For example, at Shoprite in the NY/NJ area, you can link your store loyalty card to CO and get one mile for every $2 spent -- but you have to spend at least $1,000 per quarter to get the miles. If I were a clever cashier, I'd consider doing this for customers who didn't have a loyalty card.

The scent of jealously abounds in this thread. :rolleyes:

You have the Cartera 83k debacle where many are threatening class action lawsuits and here you have a clerk using his brain in collecting unused miles. If any of you were in the clerk's position you would do the very same thing.

I'll never get this place...

Right, it's not hurting the FFP any since the miles are awarded in exchange for a given $$ of spending - and someone is still spending cash in exchange for the points here. No different from picking up the tab on your miles earning CC when out to dinner with friends, and the other folks giving you cash for their portion later. Or any number of scenarios.

The retail loyalty card is a good analogy in many cases, as some establishments provide not just cents-off instant coupons but other rewards. Kroger gives money off gas purchases at its own gas stations (and participating Shell stations); CVS gives dolar-off coupons after a certain amount of spending; KMart has something similar. Cashiers often scan either a dummy loyalty card or their own if a customer doesn't have one. Several times I've been behind a customer at Kroger without a card, and just handed mine to the cashier so the customer could get a discount. The cashier never threw a fit that I was ripping off Kroger or violating some mysterious law against "points laundering"

The only possible issue here is that the cashier's employer could consider him to be using his position of employment for personal gain. Whether the employer cares or not, who knows. But I'm sure 3 months from now this thread will still be alive debating the matter!;)

Jesperss, I am totally with you on this. We have people buying and returning goods to Costco and Nordstom just to get miles, not mention the whole mint coins deal, and this is seen as outrageous?

Practice vs. theory
 

If this were in the USA, not Canada, which it isn't and this were the first year of law school, not the real world, those who suggest that this practice is unlawful are technically correct. It may be unlawful under Canadian law, but I don't know.

However, useless the program may be, miles/points always have some cost to somebody. If the goal is get consumers to spend in certain ways, the clerk is taking the benefit for his own and whoever pays for the points thinks he is building customer loyalty.

That is a classic wire fraud under US law.

Now, the practical. Will anybody get caught and would anybody prosecute? Not very likely. But, doesn't make it right.

MR's on the other hand are neither unlawful nor typically violative of program rules. After all, a pax buys a ticket, flies a segment and gets credit for flying the segment. Whether you fly because you have been directed to for business, for vacation or because you want to earn miles, is not material.

Mint / churning and the like may be, depending on how a given individual goes about it and his/her provable motivations actually be wire frauds and/or money laundering. But, each fact pattern is different.

Tesco (a supermarket in the UK) employees do that sometimes. You get loyalty points when you shop over there. They are supposed to ask you if you have your clubcard. This is scanned before you are billed for the items you have purchased and you are supposed to get the points credited to your clubcard account.

If you say that you dont have a clubcard, I have seen employees scanning other cards(Could be their own!!!). Obviously this is not company policy to scan a dummy card as not all of them do it!!!

Not sure but he is certainly violating some Shell / Air Canada policy or other. There was a similar case in the USA where some gas station employee was caught taking cash from customers but charging the purchase to his own credit card. Again, I am not sure if that was deemed illegal, maybe not, but he was in some trouble with employer / cc company.

+1

This is no more "unethical" as the mint coins, or mileage running, or scheduling 23hr connections to get "free" stopovers.

I agree. Depending on just how many points he has accumulated this way, he could be one of the speakers at a FT DO. :D

Wow, I can't believe the bickering here over something so petty. This story reminds me of when I was 16 and working as a cashier at Kroger. During the holidays (October and November) they had a deal where you spend $500 and get a free turkey or something stupid like that and they would track it using your shopper’s card. Anyway, for the prior 6 months or so when a customer didn't have their card, I would scan mine. I can’t remember one customer getting mad over the fact that I would scan my card so they could get discounts but that's beside the point. One day in early November I was called into the manager’s office with another cashier and he presented me with a sheet of paper saying that the card that was registered to me had spent $12,XXX and another cashier had spent $5,XXX. He asked me how I had spent that much money and I told him the truth about what I was doing and what I had done since I started working the cash register. Keep in mind I was 16, living with my parents in an upper class neighborhood, had 2 cars, and could care less about free turkey. My mom had shopped at this grocery store for as long as I could remember and most of the management knew her as she was in there at least twice a week and would do special orders etc., often. The manager was cool about the whole thing and just asked us not to redeem the free turkeys. Given my spend I could have had 24 turkeys and the manager jokingly said that I alone would clean out the store’s inventory.

Anyway, I from the OP's post it does suggest that the cashier is defrauding the company, but for what, 2 miles every time someone fills up without their own card? Give me a break; some of you are taking this way too seriously. Chances are the company is able to track this and this guy(kid?) will likely be figured out before he even has enough miles for a one way coach ticket if he is even there long enough to accumulate the miles.

No, these cards are not issued by Shell, and people do not make payments on them. It is more like a supermarket loyalty card.

Not the same, customer paid for the purchase, clerk picked up the "unclaimed" loyalty points.

Please people... if you do not know what an Air Miles card is and have never used one, keep your wild accusations to yourself.

I hope this is trolling, because I didn't know there was such thing as "dirty" loyalty points you could launder across non-existent states in Canada.

That's why I had written "similar". :)

Except that it's not even remotely similar.

The similarity, the common qualitative element, is that in each case an employee processed customers' purchases through his own membership account, without informing the customer, in order to earn a few points for himself.

FWIW, while it is likely to be against some T&C or other, I don't think this is any worse that what we FT'ers routinely do in our own battles of wits against airlines, hotels, and car companies.