Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Oct 4, 2012, 5:18 pm

#2491

AA_EXP09

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If IATA has to pay then they can collect more money from the airlines in Billing fees.
But, that would mean airlines not involved in this at all (i.e. AR) would have to pay for a mistake that wasn't theirs.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:24 pm

#2492

redtailshark

Suspended

Join Date: Nov 2003

Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"

Posts: 3,386

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranskis

Since the error is obvious, perhaps the OTA should have implemented some measures to block issuance of tickets whose fares were obviously. IATA's responsibility could also be invoked as the mistake fare seems to be their fault (it could also be ATPCO or other contractors' fault)

Every time I read discussion about the "error" or "mistake" nature of the fare, and the consumer ability to "recognize" such fares, and the consequences or apportioning of liability, I wonder how these are relevant to the complaints that are being filed. It doesn't matter who is "negligent" or how: issued tickets were voided as a preemptive measure to mask a prohobited post-purchase price increase. A practice specifically called out in the ruling as not legitimate.

The DoT has specifically and categorically excluded "mistake" fares from special consideration WRT 399.88. It did this for just this reason: to prevent BA-style DEL shenanigans from 2009.

Lack of clarity in the division of responsibility was invoked as a "defense" by AC and Farebuzz.com for one of my Round 1 tickets (AC: call OTA, nothing to do with us: FB: It's AC pulling the plug, they directed us to cancel).

These arguments were given short shrift because not only was my AC ticket reinstated but another one - that had not been cancelled - was also "reinstated." On the same day. Six weeks after the initial voiding.

This regulation rejects the concept of "error" or "mistake"; responsibility lies with both OTA/plating carrier to respect the law; it is designed to remove ambiguity about consumers "recognizing" errors by enforcing all issued tickets.

It's a good rule for all stakeholders because we all have clarity. Many airlines recognize this principle now (see earlier emails from SQ and AC among others WRT RGN Round 1 tix).

LX is challenging what is an established DoT interpretation from Round 1 and their email even directly affronts the relevant ruling by stating the reason for the voiding is an "error" fare.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:24 pm

#2493

dre_techie

Join Date: Oct 2009

Programs: LH SEN, SPG Gold, HH Diamond

Posts: 1,021

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oil-man

Well neither can the airlines. Thousands of seats have been booked depriving them of $10,000 a seat. Something has got to give.

If you want to advocate someone being deprived of revenue, then I'll take the side of the citizens of the country where these tickets originate.

Sure, some people will do turn-arounds, but many are actually planning to use this opportunity to visit it and leave some crispy pictures of Benjamin Franklin there in return for seeing some beautiful sights, accommodation, food & drinks. Swiss is basically boycotting travel to Myanmar.

Poor Swiss, they can really use this money, who knows who owns those hotels and restaurants in that country anyway?

The airline is deprived of $10,000 (or maybe $15,000 that you mention a few posts up) per seat. Same airline that overbooks their cabins whenever they can, just to end up giving premium seats away for free, granted usually Y-C, not as often C-F. They must lose thousands like that as well.

Side note: Actually with the recent M&M changes it appears that LH execs actually believe that they could earn all the revenue "lost" through op-ups. Enough devil's advocate from me for today...

I guess they probably really love Gary for his (very useful) how-to blog post which got you booked & ticketed on LX if you followed his example. You know how they say: it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:25 pm

#2494

colpuck

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If this was the IATA's fault why couldn't we issue tickets on all airlines?

Oct 4, 2012, 5:27 pm

#2495

AA_EXP09

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Quote:

Originally Posted by colpuck

If this was the IATA's fault why couldn't we issue tickets on all airlines?

That was possible before resolution 852 given certain conditions.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:27 pm

#2496

dre_techie

Join Date: Oct 2009

Programs: LH SEN, SPG Gold, HH Diamond

Posts: 1,021

Quote:

Originally Posted by colpuck

If this was the IATA's fault why couldn't we issue tickets on all airlines?

Mentioned upthread, I believe. Because not all airlines participate in YY fares.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:29 pm

#2497

AA_EXP09

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Posts: 16,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by dre_techie

Mentioned upthread, I believe. Because not all airlines participate in YY fares.

Example: LH, FR, NK, S2

Oct 4, 2012, 5:31 pm

#2498

maverick17

Join Date: Oct 2010

Location: EWR, SLC, SGN

Posts: 1,113

What if reinstatement is after the date of departure?

If LX eventually has to reinstate tickets, what happens to those who were supposed to fly in the interim? Do they have any recourse or they're just out of luck?

Thx.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:34 pm

#2499

ft531

Join Date: Feb 2012

Posts: 143

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverick17

If LX eventually has to reinstate tickets, what happens to those who were supposed to fly in the interim? Do they have any recourse or they're just out of luck?

Thx.

You could request mileage credit, perhaps?

Oct 4, 2012, 5:34 pm

#2500

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

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Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,406

I have some empathy with an airline trying to cancel. Why wouldn't they try? It's not like everyone has just bought one ticket, some have bought 17 tickets, or booked half the suites cabin on SQ. Others have bought multiple tickets and made multiple bookings with no intention of flying. But they're quite happy to hold the seat, damaging the airline because potential pax will be forced to book on a competitor.

One (or two tickets) per flight fairly easy to absorb... you might not have sold the seat anyway, or you could just take an award seat out of inventory. Booking 50% of the cabin? Well - if you were running a business, what wuld you do?

There is always the possibility DOT will change their regulations. Round three may just be that catalyst.

That being said, the regulations are what they are (for now) and SWISS should be honouring those fares through US soil. To be fair to SWISS however, perhaps it would have been better if they had first given everyone the option to cancel all those excess tickets which pax have no intention of using. This might have significantly reduced SWSS' (or any other airlines') potential liability and made it seem more manageable in their eyes.

If I were an airline exec reading posts on FT and other blogs where people are bragging about the number of seats they managed to get then my first response would be to do everything I can to protect myself.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:34 pm

#2501

ranskis

Join Date: Apr 2005

Programs: AF/KL FB Plat ; A3 Gold ; HH Gold ; IHG Plat Amb

Posts: 2,380

Quote:

Originally Posted by colpuck

If this was the IATA's fault why couldn't we issue tickets on all airlines?

To issue a ticket on the stock of a specific airline ZZ, it is required that ZZ has one (international?) flight in the itinerary as the marketing carrier and that it has electronic ticket agreement with all marketing and all operating carries in the itinerary. So tickets could be issued on all airlines as long as both requirements are fulfilled.

Regarding Miles and More, I would however think the opposite: thanks to the latest enhancement, F cabins will be more empty so that gives place for all those who bought these ticket at round three and less excuse for LX to say it is a loss of revenue.

Or perhaps LX will just settle with the DoT that they will honor these tickets in economy class only and without downgrading compensation since the lowest economy fare was actually higher...

Oct 4, 2012, 5:37 pm

#2502

HansGolden

Join Date: Dec 2009

Location: ICT

Programs: AA ExP

Posts: 1,860

Quote:

Originally Posted by AA_EXP09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dre_techie

Mentioned upthread, I believe. Because not all airlines participate in YY fares.

Example: LH, FR, NK, S2

I wondered why it had to be NH-coded LH-op.

I wonder if this incident will prompt an exodus from YY fares. I wonder how many YY fares actually get booked. It can't be *that* many, surely. YY fares are usually a horrible deal.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:41 pm

#2503

AA_EXP09

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HansGolden

Mine is on 724 stock, all on LX/NH metal, canceled.
Said that a check would be arriving in 5-10 business days.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:44 pm

#2504

AA_EXP09

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Join Date: Oct 2011

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Oil-man

Nobody is trolling here, but just adding a bit of realism to the debate, with a little bit of humour.

I would suggest that the DOT regulations are in the spirit of a mistake fare where someone has in good faith bought a $1500 ticket for $500, unbeknown it's a mistake fare, and the airline wants to cancel. Not from a predatory response to a mistake fare, where a $15000 ticket is sold for $289.

Everyone who bought on this forum knew it was a mistake fare. You all tried your luck and chanced your arm. I'm not saying there is anything wrong in that. But to now approach the matter like you are the victims of some kind of scam, which needs legal redress does seem from the outside a little disingenuous.

I think a more honest approach would be to cut the vigilante act, and keep it real. Of course go to DOT and plead your case, but once the DOT form is in, I'd suggest a more modest attitude would be a welcome read.

Are airlines honest either?
They charge you YQ many times to redeem an award.

Oct 4, 2012, 5:44 pm

#2505

ft531

Join Date: Feb 2012

Posts: 143

Quote:

Originally Posted by AA_EXP09

Said that a check would be arriving in 5-10 business days.

Hrm... how are you getting a check?

The email I received said it would be credited back via my original method of payment.