You CAN get in trouble with an airline for doing MRs!
Mar 3, 2005, 3:03 pm
#46
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by autopilot
The strength of this forum is the combined force of all participating FT'ers. We are 50.000 people with the overwhelming majority on elite status at 1 or more airlines. If every one of us flies for just $ 2000 a year we bring $ 1 billion to the airlines.
That still does not mean we are the "most" important group for the airlines but we are defently a powerful force due to the fact that we communicate extensively with each other. This forum is probable a very valuable resource because it gives airlines information about real experiences from frequent fliers who understand the industry and its practices as opposed to the one-time experience of an occasional passenger.
Following some of the threads, some airlines value us higher than others, but none of them will give us the pleasure acknowleding our value to them.
That still does not mean we are the "most" important group for the airlines but we are defently a powerful force due to the fact that we communicate extensively with each other. This forum is probable a very valuable resource because it gives airlines information about real experiences from frequent fliers who understand the industry and its practices as opposed to the one-time experience of an occasional passenger.
Following some of the threads, some airlines value us higher than others, but none of them will give us the pleasure acknowleding our value to them.
Last edited by El Boocho; Mar 3, 2005 at 3:04 pm Reason: spelling
Mar 3, 2005, 3:16 pm
#47
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,110
Originally Posted by keithguy
As I understand it, one of the jobs of the RPU was to look out for multiple segments flown for mileage, but its other duties were looking out for things like back-to-back ticketing, throw away ticketing and hidden city ticketing.
-- ksinnyc (who prefers extra time at her destination over a connection, and who has yet to do any sort of a mileage run...)
Mar 3, 2005, 4:50 pm
#48
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,204
If airlines can charge different fare buckets from point A to point B to maximize their revenues, why can't flyers fly extra segments to maximize miles from point A to point B as well? And don't forget who makes the routing rule? It is the airline.
Can't someone just hop on the planes and fly as much as he/she wants?
Having said that - if there is something written by DL, boycott DL.
Can't someone just hop on the planes and fly as much as he/she wants?
Having said that - if there is something written by DL, boycott DL.
Mar 3, 2005, 7:16 pm
#50
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
My 2 cents
1) You are paying fare published between point A and point B.
2) The airline publishes multiple legal routings valid on that fare.
3) Part of the cost of a ticket to the airline is mileage debt.
4) There IS a rule covering this.
5) If fare is between 2 points, mileage accrual SHOULD be calculated between those points.
6) There is a choice the consumer has as to which airline (and which rules) he/she chooses to fly.
7) Mileage runs maximize individual milegae accrual, yet dillute mileage value for the entire system of mileage redeamers (I call this "mileage inflation")
8) Prices go up in inflation. In this case as the airfare isn't really increasing, the price of redemption goes up. While actual number of miles for free trip/upgrade have not increased, the number of seats at the discounted award level have become more rare. This can cause non-MRunners and MRunners to have to use unrestricted mileage bookings. I call this the "David Spade Effect" ("Go to ReNO to play keNO in the casiNO")
In conclusion...Mileage runs are bad for the "Mileage Network" while they are good for the individual runner. If an airline chooses to have a rule that governs it, either 1) use what you pay for ( the airfare is for travel between point A and D, not A,B,C to D, unless the ticket is priced as such.) or 2) Use an airline that does not have such a rule.
The airline is equally at fault. Their inventory system should be able to value your routes choosen along with the fare bucket paid, and decide if inventory should be granted based on total cost of potential displaced passengers via the sum of all segments, vs the revenue generated by tour ticket. If there is no demand for the seats on all of the segments to go to others, the seats should be yours (as they are...they had no problem honoring your reservation, just the mileage accrual.) CLearly their yield management system does not include in it's decision making, the value of the miles accrued. My question to you is, "Would you like the airlines to start making inventory decisions based upon mileage costs, or are you content knowing that they can pull this rule out during extreme examples of system milking? " I for one would rather not have a system policy change, and live with the rare instance of this rule being applied.
2) The airline publishes multiple legal routings valid on that fare.
3) Part of the cost of a ticket to the airline is mileage debt.
4) There IS a rule covering this.
5) If fare is between 2 points, mileage accrual SHOULD be calculated between those points.
6) There is a choice the consumer has as to which airline (and which rules) he/she chooses to fly.
7) Mileage runs maximize individual milegae accrual, yet dillute mileage value for the entire system of mileage redeamers (I call this "mileage inflation")
8) Prices go up in inflation. In this case as the airfare isn't really increasing, the price of redemption goes up. While actual number of miles for free trip/upgrade have not increased, the number of seats at the discounted award level have become more rare. This can cause non-MRunners and MRunners to have to use unrestricted mileage bookings. I call this the "David Spade Effect" ("Go to ReNO to play keNO in the casiNO")
In conclusion...Mileage runs are bad for the "Mileage Network" while they are good for the individual runner. If an airline chooses to have a rule that governs it, either 1) use what you pay for ( the airfare is for travel between point A and D, not A,B,C to D, unless the ticket is priced as such.) or 2) Use an airline that does not have such a rule.
The airline is equally at fault. Their inventory system should be able to value your routes choosen along with the fare bucket paid, and decide if inventory should be granted based on total cost of potential displaced passengers via the sum of all segments, vs the revenue generated by tour ticket. If there is no demand for the seats on all of the segments to go to others, the seats should be yours (as they are...they had no problem honoring your reservation, just the mileage accrual.) CLearly their yield management system does not include in it's decision making, the value of the miles accrued. My question to you is, "Would you like the airlines to start making inventory decisions based upon mileage costs, or are you content knowing that they can pull this rule out during extreme examples of system milking? " I for one would rather not have a system policy change, and live with the rare instance of this rule being applied.
Mar 4, 2005, 1:26 am
#51
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SNA and BNA depending on work and time of year
Programs: UA Silver/ AA EXP/Hyatt Globalist/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,189
Originally Posted by rbernheim
You can add this to one of the reasons I don't fly on Delta when I have a choice.
ITA! As a former DL loyalist, I have to say that their nit-picky interpretation of things is just beyond reproach for me. And trust me, as a southeastern US flyer, it is not easy to avoid DL! But I do!
I think the big picture thing is being missed. DL should want the business. This person is a person who has status, thus meaning they've spent significant money on the airline. HE DOES HAVE A CHOICE OF AIRLINES! DL should recognize that and not try to tick off a high dollar customer. Doing so could lead him to UA, US, AA, or the rest. Then, that's NO MONEY in the pocket of the airline!
I think the people at DL need to ask themselves which is better: giving out a few extra miles or running off a $5000+ a year customer?????????
If the answer is the latter, then I expect to see DL in Ch 11 very very soon!
My advice to the OP, try out UA. I recently found a $400 last minute fare from BNA-LAX with this routing:
BNA-ORD
ORD-CLT
CLT-SFO
SFO-LAX
LAX-LAS
LAS-SFO
SFO-PHL
PHL-BNA
And I don't hear about a tyranical RPU team at US or UA trying to stop such routing! Plus, you do get at least 1 EQM for every mile flown even on deeply discounted tickets. I'm not 100% loyal to the UA/US alliance, but at least they don't punish high dollar pax like DL is doing.
Mar 4, 2005, 12:00 pm
#52
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by anonplz
Good points. ^
But let me be a little cheeky here (having a bad day):
[cheekiness]You can't turn a profit on them when you are overpaying your management team, sure. Bring those costs down, stop giving your CEO bazillion dollar bonuses and maybe you could start to turn a profit on those seats. But ultimately, why go to the trouble when congress has spoiled you by bailing you out every time you lose money. Running an airline is one of the few businesses apparently, in which you actually win by losing.[/cheekiness]
But let me be a little cheeky here (having a bad day):
[cheekiness]You can't turn a profit on them when you are overpaying your management team, sure. Bring those costs down, stop giving your CEO bazillion dollar bonuses and maybe you could start to turn a profit on those seats. But ultimately, why go to the trouble when congress has spoiled you by bailing you out every time you lose money. Running an airline is one of the few businesses apparently, in which you actually win by losing.[/cheekiness]
Mar 4, 2005, 1:37 pm
#53
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,553
Originally Posted by mwilso09
How bout the fact that no executive salaries were paid by Delta last year, and the reason CEO Grinstien was able to talk the DL pilots into a 32.5% cut last year was because he himself took NO salary or compensation at all. That is what I would call a belief in your company's survival.
Do you have proof of that?
Mar 4, 2005, 1:44 pm
#54
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,553
Well, turns out it isn't true:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05061/464849.stm
and bear in mind this quickly googled article doesn't mention any other kinds of compensation such as bonuses, stock options, golden parachutes, severance agreements, whatever. If your claim that Grinstein took "NO salary at all" is false, I daresay it's like that you're mistaken about the rest of your claims.
Bottom line: these guys always make out like bandits, as they say, and we all know it, and we all know that Congress bails them out of financial mismanagement every three or four years. Same old crap.
When he took the job, former Continental Airlines chief executive officer Gordon Bethune had just finished a year making $882,000 and United Airlines Chief Executive Officer Glenn Tilton had just collected $746,000. American Airlines CEO Gerard Arpey is making $513,000 and Delta Air Lines chief Gerald Grinstein is making $500,000, although Grinstein did agree to forgo $125,000 of his salary last year to cut costs....
and bear in mind this quickly googled article doesn't mention any other kinds of compensation such as bonuses, stock options, golden parachutes, severance agreements, whatever. If your claim that Grinstein took "NO salary at all" is false, I daresay it's like that you're mistaken about the rest of your claims.
Bottom line: these guys always make out like bandits, as they say, and we all know it, and we all know that Congress bails them out of financial mismanagement every three or four years. Same old crap.
Mar 6, 2005, 12:09 pm
#55
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: RDU, Delta GM/1MM, Hilton Diamond (for now), Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by chicaloca453
And I don't hear about a tyranical RPU team at US or UA trying to stop such routing! Plus, you do get at least 1 EQM for every mile flown even on deeply discounted tickets. I'm not 100% loyal to the UA/US alliance, but at least they don't punish high dollar pax like DL is doing.
To me I applaud DL for stopping these MRs. It floods the upper elite ranks with people cheating the system to earn status. These people in turn I have to compete for upgrades with. I fly without doing any crazy routing, and I think it's great DL is finally stopping this nonsense.
Last edited by jfulcher; Mar 6, 2005 at 9:53 pm
Mar 6, 2005, 12:17 pm
#56
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: RDU, Delta GM/1MM, Hilton Diamond (for now), Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 3,443
Funny this article says he has a salary of 250K a year, and didn't take a salary the 1st and 4th quarters of the year. No DL execs got bonuses last year either. I think someone got that # wrong, because that 125k does match up to a 250k salary.
http://triangle.bizjournals.com/tria...7/daily48.html
http://triangle.bizjournals.com/tria...7/daily48.html
Originally Posted by anonplz
Well, turns out it isn't true:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05061/464849.stm
and bear in mind this quickly googled article doesn't mention any other kinds of compensation such as bonuses, stock options, golden parachutes, severance agreements, whatever. If your claim that Grinstein took "NO salary at all" is false, I daresay it's like that you're mistaken about the rest of your claims.
Bottom line: these guys always make out like bandits, as they say, and we all know it, and we all know that Congress bails them out of financial mismanagement every three or four years. Same old crap.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05061/464849.stm
and bear in mind this quickly googled article doesn't mention any other kinds of compensation such as bonuses, stock options, golden parachutes, severance agreements, whatever. If your claim that Grinstein took "NO salary at all" is false, I daresay it's like that you're mistaken about the rest of your claims.
Bottom line: these guys always make out like bandits, as they say, and we all know it, and we all know that Congress bails them out of financial mismanagement every three or four years. Same old crap.
Mar 6, 2005, 1:21 pm
#57
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington DC
Programs: UA Plat, Delta Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Four Seasons By Invitation, SPG Gold, #1 Club Gold, AmEx Plat
Posts: 127
I respectfully beg to differ with you Jfulcher. Whether or not you've been able to learn this from reading this or the mileage run forum, but mileage runs do not "cheat" the system in any sense of the word. Most of them merely use the valid routings as defined by the airline for the applicable fare. I think anyone on this board would agree with me in saying that abiding by the rules is not "cheating."
Further, I'm not sure your ability or inability to upgrade is being tremendously affected by any increased elite status population due to MR's. You may just be flying on a route that is hard to upgrade, like DCA-ATL on Thursday evenings, the UG list is sometimes 30 pax long, and its rare to get upgraded if you aren't a PM.
Further, I'm not sure your ability or inability to upgrade is being tremendously affected by any increased elite status population due to MR's. You may just be flying on a route that is hard to upgrade, like DCA-ATL on Thursday evenings, the UG list is sometimes 30 pax long, and its rare to get upgraded if you aren't a PM.
Mar 6, 2005, 2:12 pm
#58
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: TUL
Programs: AA Plat, DL FO/1MM, UA Silver, Marriott Titanium, National Exec Elite
Posts: 2,102
I must also disagree with JFulcher's comments... I (to date) have never done a mileage run for status, only to take advantage of various SkyMiles promotions. I earned my status on (mostly) LUT fares last year (but the occassional I fare helped a bit ) That doesn't matter though...
Deltspygt got it right, I believe! Why do they make such things options when, in fact, they are NOT options? Here I sit in ATL (A17 CRC) waiting for my flight back to TUL, when I should be on the way to CVG... It simply irritates me to no end that they make such rules... Then, even the rule states that this is only not legal just to get additional miles. Who's job is it to ascertain my reasons for flying a particular routing? A better question would be, who's BUSINESS is it to ascertain my reasons for flying a particular routing?
I bought a ticket (full fare, no less) and had a desire to travel via the published routing. What's the problem? Will there now be a field on delta.com after clicking "Purchase" to enter the reason for a trip? Since I was originally ticketed on NW, I could have simply asked them to change my routing to CLT-DTW-MSP-MEM-IAH-TUL, and had it all credited to DL, BUT WAIT! Take a look at NW's TUL/CLT routing:
TUL-NW-MEM/DFW/HOU-NW-CLT
Isn't that simple? One connection is allowed. Period. No Ifs Ands Buts about it... They have decided that (taking ALL costs into account, including miles) they can justify a passenger making only one connection through the given cities. DL, OTOH, has decided that it (again, taking into account ALL costs, including miles) can make justify a passenger making 98765318532354 connections through 98259812476785 cities. I'll include just one line from the routing table:
TUL-DL-DFW-DL-HOU-DL-MEM-DL-MSP-DL-DTT-DL-SLC-DL-BTR-DL-SHV-DL-LIT-DL-MEM-DL-CVG-ATL/ORL-DL-CLT
Why sell a car without a steering wheel? Why publish a routing that does not earn miles?
Perplexing...
) That doesn't matter though... Deltspygt got it right, I believe! Why do they make such things options when, in fact, they are NOT options? Here I sit in ATL (A17 CRC) waiting for my flight back to TUL, when I should be on the way to CVG... It simply irritates me to no end that they make such rules... Then, even the rule states that this is only not legal just to get additional miles. Who's job is it to ascertain my reasons for flying a particular routing? A better question would be, who's BUSINESS is it to ascertain my reasons for flying a particular routing?
I bought a ticket (full fare, no less) and had a desire to travel via the published routing. What's the problem? Will there now be a field on delta.com after clicking "Purchase" to enter the reason for a trip? Since I was originally ticketed on NW, I could have simply asked them to change my routing to CLT-DTW-MSP-MEM-IAH-TUL, and had it all credited to DL, BUT WAIT! Take a look at NW's TUL/CLT routing:
TUL-NW-MEM/DFW/HOU-NW-CLT
Isn't that simple? One connection is allowed. Period. No Ifs Ands Buts about it... They have decided that (taking ALL costs into account, including miles) they can justify a passenger making only one connection through the given cities. DL, OTOH, has decided that it (again, taking into account ALL costs, including miles) can make justify a passenger making 98765318532354 connections through 98259812476785 cities. I'll include just one line from the routing table:
TUL-DL-DFW-DL-HOU-DL-MEM-DL-MSP-DL-DTT-DL-SLC-DL-BTR-DL-SHV-DL-LIT-DL-MEM-DL-CVG-ATL/ORL-DL-CLT
Why sell a car without a steering wheel? Why publish a routing that does not earn miles?
Perplexing...
Mar 6, 2005, 3:08 pm
#59
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: GSP (Greenville, SC)
Programs: DL Gold Medallion; UA Premier Executive; WN sub-CP; AA sub-Gold
Posts: 13,393
Originally Posted by chicaloca453
ITA! As a former DL loyalist, I have to say that their nit-picky interpretation of things is just beyond reproach for me. And trust me, as a southeastern US flyer, it is not easy to avoid DL! But I do!
I think the big picture thing is being missed. DL should want the business. This person is a person who has status, thus meaning they've spent significant money on the airline. HE DOES HAVE A CHOICE OF AIRLINES! DL should recognize that and not try to tick off a high dollar customer. Doing so could lead him to UA, US, AA, or the rest. Then, that's NO MONEY in the pocket of the airline!
I think the people at DL need to ask themselves which is better: giving out a few extra miles or running off a $5000+ a year customer?????????
If the answer is the latter, then I expect to see DL in Ch 11 very very soon!
My advice to the OP, try out UA. I recently found a $400 last minute fare from BNA-LAX with this routing:
BNA-ORD
ORD-CLT
CLT-SFO
SFO-LAX
LAX-LAS
LAS-SFO
SFO-PHL
PHL-BNA
And I don't hear about a tyranical RPU team at US or UA trying to stop such routing! Plus, you do get at least 1 EQM for every mile flown even on deeply discounted tickets. I'm not 100% loyal to the UA/US alliance, but at least they don't punish high dollar pax like DL is doing.
I think the big picture thing is being missed. DL should want the business. This person is a person who has status, thus meaning they've spent significant money on the airline. HE DOES HAVE A CHOICE OF AIRLINES! DL should recognize that and not try to tick off a high dollar customer. Doing so could lead him to UA, US, AA, or the rest. Then, that's NO MONEY in the pocket of the airline!
I think the people at DL need to ask themselves which is better: giving out a few extra miles or running off a $5000+ a year customer?????????
If the answer is the latter, then I expect to see DL in Ch 11 very very soon!
My advice to the OP, try out UA. I recently found a $400 last minute fare from BNA-LAX with this routing:
BNA-ORD
ORD-CLT
CLT-SFO
SFO-LAX
LAX-LAS
LAS-SFO
SFO-PHL
PHL-BNA
And I don't hear about a tyranical RPU team at US or UA trying to stop such routing! Plus, you do get at least 1 EQM for every mile flown even on deeply discounted tickets. I'm not 100% loyal to the UA/US alliance, but at least they don't punish high dollar pax like DL is doing.
Mar 6, 2005, 3:13 pm
#60
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: GSP (Greenville, SC)
Programs: DL Gold Medallion; UA Premier Executive; WN sub-CP; AA sub-Gold
Posts: 13,393
Originally Posted by jfulcher
Don't know what rock you've been under since December but DL now gives 1 MQM per mile flow for the discount fairs too..
To me I applaud DL for stopping these MRs. It floods the upper elite ranks with people cheating the system to earn status. These people in turn I have to compete for upgrades with. I fly without doing any crazy routing, and I think it's great DL is finally stopping this nonsense.
To me I applaud DL for stopping these MRs. It floods the upper elite ranks with people cheating the system to earn status. These people in turn I have to compete for upgrades with. I fly without doing any crazy routing, and I think it's great DL is finally stopping this nonsense.
When segment qualification was allowed, the elite population was larger, not because of mileage runners, but rather from people who flew the 30 or 60 segments on short-haul travel, in most cases paying less in total revenue than the people who flew 25,000 or 50,000 flight miles.
Delta eliminated segment qualification, effectively demoting short-haul flyers one elite level. This in turn eliminated the notion of an elite-qualifying segment run.