AAExecPlatFlier

No it wasn’t. The perimeter rule has been around long before 911

ashill

The 1250 mile perimeter has absolutely nothing to do with security for the US Capitol, and the restrictions have been eased (many more exemptions), not expanded, since 9/11. The flight length restrictions date to the 1960s when Dulles was built and jet flying began; they are meant to drive long haul traffic to Dulles and reduce noise at DCA on the theory that longer flights will be more loaded with fuel and thus heavier and louder. (Of course, the approaches to the airport pass over some of the wealthiest and most politically-connected residential neighborhoods in the world, especially Old Town Alexandria and Georgetown.)

Read the Wikipedia article (as I did last night to remind myself). It's pretty clear.

There are other DCA-related rules, especially the routing on the river visual approach from the north, that do have to do with security, or "security" depending on your perspective.

MarkOK

I would do the same if I had power to abuse. I can walk from DCA to the national mall faster than anyone can drive me out to Dulles.

(and yes, when I fly into DC in the spring and fall with just a light suitcase, I have a few times now walked from the terminal straight to central DC). It's a beautiful walk, especially after being crammed in coach for 2.5 hours)

CZBB

Are you sure about that, and that it wasn't BWI ? DCA has pretty short runways, and a 707 is ground hugger, you'd be hard pressed to take off from the 7000' with enough fuel to reach Europe.

According to the Wikipedia article on DCA there's no mention of overseas carriers at all; and the BWI wiki article states

geo1005

707's did use DCA but they never flew internationally for European flights (to my knowledge there hasn't been a scheduled European flight to/from DCA).

PanAm had a DCA flight with a 707 back in the later 50s/early 60s. Lots of wide-bodies did utilize DCA. As mentioned up-thread, DL had a 767, Eastern did too.

A NW DC-10 made a diversion to DCA (from BWI) during a storm and made an empty flight out the next day.

AND, the 787 has come in and out of DCA when it was first launched - I was at Gravelly Point and expected the 787 to take most of the 7k foot runway to get off the ground but it was up and off with lots of room to spare making its departure with ease (it was empty of course).

IADCAflyer

I think congress has pretty strong opinions regarding where beyond perimeter slots and slots in general are allocated. State capitols, cities with large government contracting presence and other hubs have always been the go-to out of DCA (other than major cities like BOS, NYC, ORD, ATL, DFW, and IAH). That is why cities like HSV, CAE, CHS, and DAY get heavy play at DCA. Remember also, unless you have a -ton- of slots, you're going to bulk up on service to your hubs. Network carriers like AA and to a lesser extent DL have enough slots to attempt routes to non-hub cities.

International (aside from Canada) has never been a focus on DCA. I know US ran service to BDA in the summer and I think US used to do NAS. All other "international" cities (GCM, MBJ, STT) are at least 1250 miles and no carrier is going to get a perimeter exemption to GCM when cities like SMF, SAN, SJC, COS, SAT, and ELP still have no non-stop service. If there is ever another round, expect SAT and SAN to be a top of everyone's request list. The only other place I could see "internationally" would be YVR.

Often1

Most definitely not a security or 9/11 issue. The perimeter restrictions have been around for a lot longer. Congress authorizes the number of "out-of-perimeter" slots and those are then assigned by DOT. Some of the current configuration arises out of an agreement reached to permit the acquisition of AA by US (and then renaming as AA).

DCA routinely accepts 757's and, has serviced 767's and 777's. But, what it can't accommodate is a fully-fueled and also loaded (with pax) aircraft and then fly to Western Europe.

CZBB

I wasn't trying to imply there weren't 707s at DCA, I was saying you'd never be able to reliably fly one to Europe from there, as a 707 (or any wide body) is never going to get off the ground from DCA at close to MTOW. I remember watching (in the 80s) the AC 727-200 YYJ-YYZ takeoff from YYJ's 7000' runway, and it used every inch of runway on warm (not even hot) summer days, at virtually sea level. Take a modern 767 wide-body and have it 40 tons short of MTOW and they take off like a rocket, which is why 767s operate out of DCA. My guess is that A321s and 739s have big issues on the longer haul routes during hot summer days.


Per history of DCA on Wikipedia

Quote:

Jet flights began in April 1966 (727-200s were not allowed until 1970).

quite interesting about 727-200s, as they had (compared to the 707) shorter runway requirements

AndyPatterson

Google comes up with this -- but it was a Pan Am 707 that Mrs Eisenhower launched at DCA! Don't know why I remembered it as "Sabena" ...
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531019
http://www.aircargonews.com/FT11/B707PanAmlaunch.jpg

For what it's worth, Churchill arrived at DCA on a BOAC Stratocruiser. Possibly a refueling stop at Gander or somewhere else in the maritime provinces, though.
https://www.criticalpast.com/video/6...-Stratocruiser

CZBB

which was then ferried to Baltimore before passengers boarded the flight... if you read the airliners dot net thread

The Boeing 377 Stratocruiser was a 4-engined prop airliner derived from the B29, and yes , likely via Gander.

ashill

AC applied for one of the four available-to-any-airline perimeter exemption slots to fly to YVR in the last round of new slots. Unsurprisingly, they didn't get it (AS-PDX, VX-SFO, B6-SJU, and WN-AUS got them that round), since YVR doesn't have a strong advocate in Congress. AA, UA, and DL each have at least one free beyond-perimeter slot that they could use for YVR if they wanted to, but it seems unlikely to me that YVR would move to the top of the list for a US airline unless there were many more beyond-perimeter slots.

VFR

I am not sure of the status of the DL/WS and UA/AC joint ventures, but it is conceivable that if the Canadian partner sees enough business they could convince the American partner to add the flight. I believe the DL/WS JV is still pending, and that AC/UA don't have a transborder JV but have the ability to establish one should they wish with 12 markets excluded for competition reasons.

I found it a bit difficult to find the exact beyond perimeter slots, so here they are, from a TPG article on the subject. Odd that I couldn't find where the US Government publishes them...

The AS partnership seems like it could be a winner in the DC area for AA, since AA fliers can get to SFO, PDX, and SEA x2 non-stop and get another flight option to LAX.

cova

On the 1250 miles DCA perimeter -- it used to be less - maybe 1100 miles. Then many years back they extended it to 1250 to allow non-stops to DFW and IAH. I think a politician from Texas got that extension.

But AA used to fly DCA-IAD-DFW to get around the rule.. I have flow this flight from DCA - but way back. It stopped at IAD for departures only, no arrivals allowed. That was when the mobile lounges took you directly to the plane (the way the airport was designed). So the stop was quick, and the mobile lounge was waiting with the passengers boarding at IAD. So no need to go to a gate. Well they did not have gates for the plane in those days at IAD. But I am sure they did some refueling at IAD.

IADCAflyer

Jim Wright perhaps?

IADCAflyer

I remember that now. Thanks for the reminder. As I said, as long as cities like SMF and SAN and SAT don't have a non-stop flight, you're NOT going to see something exotic like YVR picked as a destination.