DCA Curfew

Old Jul 1, 2017, 9:54 am
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by transportprof
Could pilots call DCA tower from the ramp at ORD?
No, vhf radio communication range is roughly 50-200 miles depending on weather conditions.

Last edited by clubord; Jul 1, 2017 at 10:01 am
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 10:11 am
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Originally Posted by bwiadca
Actually there was. From the website you can see that it wasn't officially called curfew. However, that's what it was.

"In the early 1980s, louder aircraft operating at Reagan National prompted the FAA - the original airport operator - to impose nighttime noise restrictions between 10 p.m. and 6:59 a.m. which became known as the DCA Nighttime Noise Rule. The DCA Nighttime Noise Rule is not an operational curfew at Reagan National."
Maybe the confusion is that (as you quoted above) there was a nighttime restriction on loud aircraft. This was back in the day when 727's dominated at DCA. I remember when the "quiet" stage-3 MD-80s came out and were allowed to land at night. Hard to believe we ever considered the mad dogs to be "quiet"! Anyway, today all aircraft meet the noise restrictions so the rule is moot (if it even still exists).

Originally Posted by bwiadca
When the curfew was in place, there was one gimmick that airlines came up with to avoid missing the 10pm cut off time. If the airline contacted the tower before 10pm they could still arrive, even when the flight landed after 10pm.

Airlines running late, still flying over Blue Ridge, would contact the tower at DCA to request landing clearance. As long as they've called before 10pm they were allowed to land.
Not sure where you heard this but it is most certainly "urban legend". Aircraft don't receive landing clearance until after they are on final approach (typically <15 miles out) and are handed off from the final approach controller to the tower. The tower does not issue landing clearance until the controller assures it is safe to do so (due to other traffic, airport/runway conditions, etc.) which would be impossible from such a distance.
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 1:14 pm
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UAL calls it a curfew for DCA....its in our Jepp charts under the heading "Curfew hours and operating restrictions" It is aircraft specific and is further restricted based on aircraft weight for both arrivals and takeoffs betwen 2200-0700

"Be advised that ATC clearance does not waive curfew restrictions"
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 5:01 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by UALPilotDC
UAL calls it a curfew for DCA....its in our Jepp charts under the heading "Curfew hours and operating restrictions" It is aircraft specific and is further restricted based on aircraft weight for both arrivals and takeoffs betwen 2200-0700

"Be advised that ATC clearance does not waive curfew restrictions"
Is a plane louder if it lands heavy? More engine thrust on approach?

I had a situation like this where we were delayed departing for DCA and so were "overweight due to the curfew" and they needed to get 12 people off the plane.

Last edited by findark; Jul 1, 2017 at 5:16 pm
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #20  
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Not a pilot, but I'd imagine the extra thrust needed for the extra weight would make a big difference in noise.
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 5:59 pm
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Originally Posted by findark
Is a plane louder if it lands heavy? More engine thrust on approach?

I had a situation like this where we were delayed departing for DCA and so were "overweight due to the curfew" and they needed to get 12 people off the plane.
all else being equal, an aircraft would require more thrust the heavier it is since it would require a higher speed to generate the lift needed to fly.

Think of your car going up a steep hill on the highway. To maintain 55 MPH going uphill the engine needs to work harder (higher rpm). Now do that while towing a trailer behind it. The RPM's would be even higher to maintain 55 mph. More weight= harder working engine. And while an approach would need less thrust then level flight or a climb, to maintain the minimum speed a certain amount of thrust is required. Those speeds are based on the weight of the aircraft.
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 6:45 pm
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Even a heavy plane could land with the engines at idle speed, but the slope would be higher in order to provide enough airspeed to keep it from stalling. They normally don't do that because if the approach says to land at, say 3 degrees, then if the plane is heavier, you will need some thrust to keep the plane from sinking faster than that.
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 6:46 pm
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This is a debate about less than nothing, e.g. semantics.

Sure, there's no operational curfew, but a carrier still can't operate an aircraft which doesn't meet noise restriction standards after hours.

If you are in one of those aircraft which doesn't and your flight is cancelled/delayed, whether it's a "curfew" or a "noise restriction" is a less than interesting distinction without a meaning.
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Old Jul 1, 2017, 7:39 pm
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In my ~ 40 years of using National/Reagan and staying in Crystal City, I've seen light planes fly in and out all night long. Always figured the curfew's/restriction's other, unpublicized purpose was to clear the runways for congress, government and military executives who prefer it over Andrews.
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 7:54 am
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Originally Posted by Often1
This is a debate about less than nothing, e.g. semantics.

Sure, there's no operational curfew, but a carrier still can't operate an aircraft which doesn't meet noise restriction standards after hours.

If you are in one of those aircraft which doesn't and your flight is cancelled/delayed, whether it's a "curfew" or a "noise restriction" is a less than interesting distinction without a meaning.
So, are the mainline airline (mostly AA) flights that are scheduled to land in the middle of the night (3am) somehow meeting the noise resttrictions or is the airline just paying the penalty.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall UA previosuly running very early morning scheduled arrivals (IAH-DCA) during peak travel times (at the end of Thanksgiving weekend).

-FlyerBeek
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 1:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1
This is a debate about less than nothing, e.g. semantics.

Sure, there's no operational curfew, but a carrier still can't operate an aircraft which doesn't meet noise restriction standards after hours.

If you are in one of those aircraft which doesn't and your flight is cancelled/delayed, whether it's a "curfew" or a "noise restriction" is a less than interesting distinction without a meaning.
Simply wrong.

As discussed in this thread:
  • neither the FAA nor MWAA (the operator at DCA) currently restrict nighttime operations by any of the modern aircraft that operate scheduled service
  • at one time, there was a noise restriction for very loud aircraft that used to operate at DCA (e.g. 727, 737-200, etc.) but that has long ago become irrelevant due to modern aircraft engine technology

There is no limitation on nighttime operations at DCA in 2017 by scheduled operators! If anyone believes differently, please point me to the FAR or MWAA policy.

Not sure about the Jepp charts that UALPilotDC mentioned. Perhaps this is a UA-imposed restriction? If this is in the standard FAA DCA charts could you please show where?
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 2:27 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by flyer703
If this is in the standard FAA DCA charts could you please show where?
We can all agree SNA has a curfew, right? Where is that shown in its charts?? https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...SNA/procedures
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 2:58 pm
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sbm12
We can all agree SNA has a curfew, right?
SNA might have a curfew, but DCA doesn't.
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 3:11 pm
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http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-rule
Due to advancements in aviation technology, the majority of the aircraft currently operating at Reagan National between 10 p.m. and 6:59 a.m. comply with the DCA Nighttime Noise Rule.

However, the Airports Authority still audits, investigates and enforces the Nighttime Noise Rule to ensure aircraft are in compliance. Non-compliant aircraft may be fined up to $5,000 per violation by the Airports Authority.
It is not called a curfew but the effect is similar. Certain airplanes, sometimes only when above certain weights, will be fined for operating outside the stated hours.

Operationally it is treated the same as a curfew. Many will use the term "curfew" to describe the situation. I'm not sure I see the importance of correcting them.
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Old Jul 2, 2017, 3:28 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by flyer703
Simply wrong.

As discussed in this thread:
  • neither the FAA nor MWAA (the operator at DCA) currently restrict nighttime operations by any of the modern aircraft that operate scheduled service
  • at one time, there was a noise restriction for very loud aircraft that used to operate at DCA (e.g. 727, 737-200, etc.) but that has long ago become irrelevant due to modern aircraft engine technology

There is no limitation on nighttime operations at DCA in 2017 by scheduled operators! If anyone believes differently, please point me to the FAR or MWAA policy.

Not sure about the Jepp charts that UALPilotDC mentioned. Perhaps this is a UA-imposed restriction? If this is in the standard FAA DCA charts could you please show where?
We can go round and round as many times as you want, but DCA's operating authority (MWAA) makes it clear that the unique DCA noise rules --- which are grandfathered --- sweep in some Class III aircraft.

The carriers operate under these rules. Call it a curfew or a noise restriction as you will. It is a government rule which limits access for certain aircraft at certain hours.

It's a fool's errand to keep arguing about reality.

http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-rule
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