Marriott Points and Divorce
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Programs: Marriott Platinum Premier, UA 1K
Posts: 375
Marriott Points and Divorce
Does anyone know how a large number of Marriott points is typically settled in divorce proceedings. I'm in the state of CO, a community property state, with 1.2 Million points. --- Edited--not community property, but equitable distribution.
I found this in the Terms and Conditions:
http://www.marriott.com/rewards/terms/default.mi
Accrued points and miles do not constitute property of the member. Points accrued by a Marriott Rewards member are for the member's benefit only and may not be transferred to anyone. Points are transferable to a legal spouse or partner only in the case of documented death of the member. Points are not transferable to another person for any other reason, including divorce or inheritance.
This implies that the points are not a tangible asset, but simply a benefit.
Do the courts uphold this and can these points simply be excluded from the division of marital property?
Is this the same with United miles or other hotel or airline programs?
I found this in the Terms and Conditions:
http://www.marriott.com/rewards/terms/default.mi
Accrued points and miles do not constitute property of the member. Points accrued by a Marriott Rewards member are for the member's benefit only and may not be transferred to anyone. Points are transferable to a legal spouse or partner only in the case of documented death of the member. Points are not transferable to another person for any other reason, including divorce or inheritance.
This implies that the points are not a tangible asset, but simply a benefit.
Do the courts uphold this and can these points simply be excluded from the division of marital property?
Is this the same with United miles or other hotel or airline programs?
Last edited by BigYellowDog; Aug 4, 2009 at 5:53 pm
#2
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K, AA Gold, Marriott PP
Posts: 174
Sorry mate...
Are those points all from your stays? Only way I could see maybe getting some split is if some of the points were from her stays.
Are those points all from your stays? Only way I could see maybe getting some split is if some of the points were from her stays.
#3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NYNY
Programs: Marriott Ambassador & LT Titanium, UA Silver, AA PLT
Posts: 842
Couldn't the court come up with a cash value and make you pay half of it out?
#4
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, VA
Programs: AA Plat 2MM, MR Gold, Avis Pref
Posts: 41,109
Aren't airline miles the property of the airline (hence why you can't sell them)
but I thought airline miles were sometimes reallocated in divorces?
to further complicate matters, couldn't one say (if true) that they were all or (X%) earned on the company dime and are hence the companies points/miles?
but I thought airline miles were sometimes reallocated in divorces?
to further complicate matters, couldn't one say (if true) that they were all or (X%) earned on the company dime and are hence the companies points/miles?
#5
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 859
The court required my friend and his wife to split his Starwood points (he had nearly 1,000,000 of them!!!!!! - which is a hellofalot of starwood points). His main problem - his had told his wife for years how much they were worth!
#6
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, VA
Programs: AA Plat 2MM, MR Gold, Avis Pref
Posts: 41,109
keep travel points mum..
if you redeem them for family vacation; just say wow that wiped me out
#7
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DCA / WAS
Programs: DL 2+ million/PM, YX, Marriott Plt, *wood gold, HHonors, CO Plt, UA, AA EXP, WN, AGR
Posts: 9,388
#8
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ATL
Programs: DL SkyMiles, MR, HH, ICH/PC, Avis Pref., Hertz Gold
Posts: 2,897
It is times like these when the guy who brags about scoring those $500/night rooms at Vail on award stays should keep mum!
A better assessment of the points value would be toward the merchandaise. There is a pretty even (but low) relationship between the points and value.
If the T/C states that the points are not property and cannot be transferred, how can the courts decree otherwise?
A better assessment of the points value would be toward the merchandaise. There is a pretty even (but low) relationship between the points and value.
If the T/C states that the points are not property and cannot be transferred, how can the courts decree otherwise?
#9
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DCA, EGE, IAD
Programs: MR LTT, BA Gold, AA LTP, UA Silver
Posts: 6,077
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Programs: Marriott Platinum Premier, UA 1K
Posts: 375
The lawyer I just saw, is not sure. The listserve she's a member has this debate all the time apparently and she'll need to research it more..
Someone mentioned merchandise, which might be an option although the redemption value is horrid. Since I will need a new place to stay shortly, maybe I should just get a Marriott Bed.
Preserving these without having to give something up, is the unlikely goal.
I've got over 500,000 UAL miles as well.
TIC - Maybe I should use them to start an affair and travel to a few exotic places. .
Someone mentioned merchandise, which might be an option although the redemption value is horrid. Since I will need a new place to stay shortly, maybe I should just get a Marriott Bed.
Preserving these without having to give something up, is the unlikely goal.
I've got over 500,000 UAL miles as well.
TIC - Maybe I should use them to start an affair and travel to a few exotic places. .
#11
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DCA, EGE, IAD
Programs: MR LTT, BA Gold, AA LTP, UA Silver
Posts: 6,077
Argentina is nice from what I understand. So is the Appalachian Trail, but there are few places one can use points or miles on the AT.
#12
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: DEN
Programs: MR PP, UA Silver, SW A-List, HH Diamond
Posts: 345
I would say someone would be somewhat overpaying to, for instance, pay out even one cent per point to keep from splitting up the reward points. Cash is good anywhere. Marriott points are not. And if Marriott has a corporate policy that points cannot be transferred, how else can these be divided?
#13
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Programs: Marriott Platinum Premier, UA 1K
Posts: 375
Email to Attorney, we'll see if she agrees.
Here are the terms and conditions for Marriott Points.
http://www.marriott.com/rewards/term....mi#conditions
If you look at point 3 under conditions for enrollment, is states:
Accrued points and miles do not constitute property of the member. Points accrued by a Marriott Rewards member are for the member's benefit only and may not be transferred to anyone. Points are transferable to a legal spouse or partner only in the case of documented death of the member. Points are not transferable to another person for any other reason, including divorce or inheritance.
If I read that correctly, I am not the owner of the points and therefore have no ability to negotiate the points in a divorce proceeding. In other words, it should be handled just like my Lifetime Gold Status with Marriott, where I get certain perks and discounts for being a Lifetime Gold Member. This can't be negotiated in a divorce proceeding as a status can't be transfered or used by an ex-partner and there are no tangible assets, but there are still perks for the status. I believe Marriott's terms indicate the points are simply a benefit to the member but owned by Marriott and have no direct value to the member as they are not the member's assets. Marriott has the right revalue the benefit or terminate the program at anytime, so even placing a value on them is only at the whim of Marriott deciding to keep the program as it stands today.
Similar wording is used for United Mileage Plus miles per their terms and conditions:
http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1155,00.html
Accrued mileage and certificates do not constitute property of the member. Neither accrued mileage nor certificates are transferable (i) upon death, (ii) as part of a domestic relations matter, or (iii) otherwise by operation of law.
If my spouse or her attorney bring the points into negotiations, I think we can argue that these points are not to be part of the divorce proceedings as they are benefits allowed by Marriott and UAL and not assets owned by me.
I don't plan on listing them as part of our material asset, based on these statements.
Here are the terms and conditions for Marriott Points.
http://www.marriott.com/rewards/term....mi#conditions
If you look at point 3 under conditions for enrollment, is states:
Accrued points and miles do not constitute property of the member. Points accrued by a Marriott Rewards member are for the member's benefit only and may not be transferred to anyone. Points are transferable to a legal spouse or partner only in the case of documented death of the member. Points are not transferable to another person for any other reason, including divorce or inheritance.
If I read that correctly, I am not the owner of the points and therefore have no ability to negotiate the points in a divorce proceeding. In other words, it should be handled just like my Lifetime Gold Status with Marriott, where I get certain perks and discounts for being a Lifetime Gold Member. This can't be negotiated in a divorce proceeding as a status can't be transfered or used by an ex-partner and there are no tangible assets, but there are still perks for the status. I believe Marriott's terms indicate the points are simply a benefit to the member but owned by Marriott and have no direct value to the member as they are not the member's assets. Marriott has the right revalue the benefit or terminate the program at anytime, so even placing a value on them is only at the whim of Marriott deciding to keep the program as it stands today.
Similar wording is used for United Mileage Plus miles per their terms and conditions:
http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1155,00.html
Accrued mileage and certificates do not constitute property of the member. Neither accrued mileage nor certificates are transferable (i) upon death, (ii) as part of a domestic relations matter, or (iii) otherwise by operation of law.
If my spouse or her attorney bring the points into negotiations, I think we can argue that these points are not to be part of the divorce proceedings as they are benefits allowed by Marriott and UAL and not assets owned by me.
I don't plan on listing them as part of our material asset, based on these statements.
#14
Join Date: Oct 2008
Programs: UA 1K and 1 Million Miles, Marriott Plat Premier and LT Plat, Hertz Pres Circle
Posts: 456
Time to find a new partner and celebrate by going first class and staying at a Cat 8 hotel and burn the miles/points.
#15
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SNA
Posts: 18,240
Hmmm. I'm in charge of the points around here, don't thiunk my husband the owner of said points even knows the password. Guess I better keep it that way.