Jan 2, 2017, 7:37 pm
Last edit by: Marathon Man
NEW TO MS: Do some serious reading for a month of all the posts and wiki to get an understanding of MS before asking common questions.
Note: the 2016 version of this thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1737819-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2016-a-39.html#post27694986, the 2015 version of the thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1642283-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2015-a.html
Welcome to Manufactured Spending. Marathon Man did not write this message, but he has edited it and anyone can. If you are new here, please spend some time reading before posting. Most likely your questions have already been answered multiple times. Consider deals that you share. These threads are searchable by Google. A volatile deal may be worth holding close to the vest.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. High "View Count" and "Replies" are good indicators of active "master threads" on a specific topic.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
3) A glossary wiki for MS located in the thread Glossary, Manufactured Spending Forum
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. Some might argue that MS is like card counting in a casino. It is not illegal but casinos don’t like it. Orhers have said it’s like having a fake ID in college to use just to get into bars where all the fun is. Just because it worked here yesterday doesn’t mean it will get you in today. MS is like being a wood worker constantly using a table saw. Always watch what you are doing—always! Or you will lose something. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is legal.
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
6) MSing can be used for a variety of purposes, ranging from smallish amounts to meet minimum spend requirements to get a credit card signup bonus, to accumulating huge numbers of points for travel/cashback/etc. Remember too that you will often have expenses such as purchase fees, liquidation fees, and gas.
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
- A helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS
New MSers can also read all these threads:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending-719/
Note: the 2016 version of this thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1737819-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2016-a-39.html#post27694986, the 2015 version of the thread is here: www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1642283-new-manufactured-spending-start-here-2015-a.html
Welcome to Manufactured Spending. Marathon Man did not write this message, but he has edited it and anyone can. If you are new here, please spend some time reading before posting. Most likely your questions have already been answered multiple times. Consider deals that you share. These threads are searchable by Google. A volatile deal may be worth holding close to the vest.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. High "View Count" and "Replies" are good indicators of active "master threads" on a specific topic.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
3) A glossary wiki for MS located in the thread Glossary, Manufactured Spending Forum
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. Some might argue that MS is like card counting in a casino. It is not illegal but casinos don’t like it. Orhers have said it’s like having a fake ID in college to use just to get into bars where all the fun is. Just because it worked here yesterday doesn’t mean it will get you in today. MS is like being a wood worker constantly using a table saw. Always watch what you are doing—always! Or you will lose something. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is legal.
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
6) MSing can be used for a variety of purposes, ranging from smallish amounts to meet minimum spend requirements to get a credit card signup bonus, to accumulating huge numbers of points for travel/cashback/etc. Remember too that you will often have expenses such as purchase fees, liquidation fees, and gas.
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
- A helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS
New MSers can also read all these threads:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending-719/
New to Manufactured Spending? Start here(2017-2018)
Sep 27, 2017, 9:02 pm
#301
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3
I'm new to MS and I was looking at doing the BB method for buying VGC's at Walmart with my CC. Then I can use BB to pay mortgage or transfer funds to my checking account. I have been reading a lot of mixed reviews on this and people having the accounts shutdown.
To start I was looking to get a 50k signup bonus on an AAdvantage card (targeted offer I think) from Citi. I have never had a BB account. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
To start I was looking to get a 50k signup bonus on an AAdvantage card (targeted offer I think) from Citi. I have never had a BB account. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Note 1: I xfer funds from B.B./serve to bank account when balance gets to $2k
Note2: I use B.B./serve for small purchases like coffee & snacks.
Sep 28, 2017, 1:34 am
#302
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PHX & AGP
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,453
Your strategy should work. I have been doing that for a couple of years and have not been shut down. I have B.B. in my name and serve for wife and MS about $2k/mo on each for min spends. Recommendation: set up accounts on top cash back and giftcardmall. Then purchase 2@$500 vgcs from gcm through the tcb portal. Your 1% kickback from tcb about covers the cost of the vgcs. When vgcs arrive in the mail take them both to wmt cs and load $500 to bb and $500 to serve. Repeat.
Note 1: I xfer funds from B.B./serve to bank account when balance gets to $2k
Note2: I use B.B./serve for small purchases like coffee & snacks.
Note 1: I xfer funds from B.B./serve to bank account when balance gets to $2k
Note2: I use B.B./serve for small purchases like coffee & snacks.
Sep 28, 2017, 7:40 am
#303
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
I'm new to MS and I was looking at doing the BB method for buying VGC's at Walmart with my CC. Then I can use BB to pay mortgage or transfer funds to my checking account. I have been reading a lot of mixed reviews on this and people having the accounts shutdown.
To start I was looking to get a 50k signup bonus on an AAdvantage card (targeted offer I think) from Citi. I have never had a BB account. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
To start I was looking to get a 50k signup bonus on an AAdvantage card (targeted offer I think) from Citi. I have never had a BB account. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
axp prepaid cards shutdown really happens. HOWEVER, with recent reports of axp selling their prepaids to incomm, I have not read of new wave of shutdowns. do NOT be complacent though, I'm not saying there will no shutdowns at this time. Just find a strategy of loading that works for you while maxing out the $5K load allowed per calendar month. keep reading if you're interested to do this for the long haul and then try small amounts first until you get a grip on buying VGC and draining them back to $. make it your goal NOT to get stucked with plastics you cannot drain later. VGCs sold online or in b&m stores are meant to be drained ASAP, better not hoard them for later use.
Sep 28, 2017, 3:05 pm
#304
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7
Your strategy should work. I have been doing that for a couple of years and have not been shut down. I have B.B. in my name and serve for wife and MS about $2k/mo on each for min spends. Recommendation: set up accounts on top cash back and giftcardmall. Then purchase 2@$500 vgcs from gcm through the tcb portal. Your 1% kickback from tcb about covers the cost of the vgcs. When vgcs arrive in the mail take them both to wmt cs and load $500 to bb and $500 to serve. Repeat.
Note 1: I xfer funds from B.B./serve to bank account when balance gets to $2k
Note2: I use B.B./serve for small purchases like coffee & snacks.
Note 1: I xfer funds from B.B./serve to bank account when balance gets to $2k
Note2: I use B.B./serve for small purchases like coffee & snacks.
Sep 28, 2017, 4:47 pm
#305
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
you can't use your BBird to buy MO anywhere, the PIN is only for ATM w/d.
Sep 28, 2017, 8:51 pm
#306
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3
So I've been looking to use gcm to meet the required spending for bonus points on a few cards and this seems like a really good method, just a bit confused as to what cashback sites to use and which gift card to buy cuz theres a huge variety of vgcs on the site. I know I need a metabank vgc to liquidate in walmart but there seem to be two types of gcs on gcm. If one of you wise MSers can point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated!
Sep 29, 2017, 3:59 pm
#307
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7
So I've been looking to use gcm to meet the required spending for bonus points on a few cards and this seems like a really good method, just a bit confused as to what cashback sites to use and which gift card to buy cuz theres a huge variety of vgcs on the site. I know I need a metabank vgc to liquidate in walmart but there seem to be two types of gcs on gcm. If one of you wise MSers can point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated!
I'm new to the game as well, just bought a regular VGC. I don't think it really matters the type of image/coloring/theme you have on there. From what I've read maybe some are better in hiding the fact that it is a gift card rather than a regular debit card but I'm not sure about that.
I also am not sure what you mean by two types. I just purchased a regular Visa Gift Card, what is the other type you are mentioning?
Sep 29, 2017, 9:59 pm
#308
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3
I'm new to the game as well, just bought a regular VGC. I don't think it really matters the type of image/coloring/theme you have on there. From what I've read maybe some are better in hiding the fact that it is a gift card rather than a regular debit card but I'm not sure about that.
I also am not sure what you mean by two types. I just purchased a regular Visa Gift Card, what is the other type you are mentioning?
I also am not sure what you mean by two types. I just purchased a regular Visa Gift Card, what is the other type you are mentioning?
Sep 30, 2017, 12:52 am
#309
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PDX
Programs: Don't think it matters...
Posts: 5,240
The economics of it..
A newbie in this and successfully completed my 1st transaction 
Bought OV GC's issued by Bancorp, took to PO - got MO and paid my rent with it.. Good a 1st hand experience of how this works..
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
Bought OV GC's issued by Bancorp, took to PO - got MO and paid my rent with it.. Good a 1st hand experience of how this works..
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
Sep 30, 2017, 7:23 am
#310
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
A newbie in this and successfully completed my 1st transaction
Bought OV GC's issued by Bancorp, took to PO - got MO and paid my rent with it.. Good a 1st hand experience of how this works..
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
Bought OV GC's issued by Bancorp, took to PO - got MO and paid my rent with it.. Good a 1st hand experience of how this works..
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
All you need now is courage to put into action your head knowledge. Follow Nike's slogan. Yes, there will always be risks but as they say, no guts, no glory. You may have to open accounts at FIs in YOUR area, gauge if they're MS friendly and start your MO deposits and ramp up slowly. The worse thing that can happen is you'll get shutdown if the FI does not like what you're doing. Social networking is vital in this 'hobby', learn how to build bridges, don't be an a$$ if you want people to help you. Stay away from "user friendly" people, they are those who just take without sharing valuable info that'll benefit you.
I commend you for crunching your numbers to see if it's worthwhile doing; there are lots of newbies who just go with what they read and follow others blindly w/o crunching their numbers to see if they're profiting from MS or not. As you go along, you will stumble on a lot of opportunities that let you MS for free, know how to keep that a secret so you can keep enjoying it for a long time or else, once you leak it in public forums, expect several thousands to try it and you can expect a shutdown in a few days. That is the quickest way to kill a deal. Last, but not the least, if you find a good source to buy your VGCs and/or MOs, don't post an invite to the whole MS community unless you're willing to give up your precious store. By that I mean don't give exact locations (saying store name is fine and let them check their store), there are people with million miles to burn that'll "accept" your invite and it'll be too late for you to realize the irreparable damages they've done.
Sep 30, 2017, 10:45 am
#311
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: S Cal
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat, United Silver, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat
Posts: 1,142
A newbie in this and successfully completed my 1st transaction
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
Now, the question.
While this really does make sense for reaching minimum spending limits on a new CC, other than that for normal regular CC's, is it really valuable to earn points / miles this way.
My computation for a USD 1000 transaction.
GC purchase price - = $5.95*2 = $11.90
PO MO - $1.60
So total $13.50.. assume we get 2points / miles per $, then its $13.50 for 2k miles ..
Alternatively, there maybe cash back cards, which give between 1 - 2.5% cash back, so that means depending on the card folks can earn between 5-12$ per
$1000 cycle .
Considering banks frown if we deposit MO's in our account, how do people MS 20 - 30k $ per month ? Assume that is done, then too the cash earning on 30k$ is not more than $360 if at all.
I am sure I am missing something.. what is that ?
Throw some light please
Anyway, this is a philosophical question, along the lines of "What the hell are we doing?" I think it makes sense to stand back and think about this from time to time. Understand that I am not one of the really heavy hitters. In the old Bluebird/Redcard days I was able to get to the range of 25-30K per month before AmEx shut down my accounts. Now a 15K month of MS is about the max for me, and I'm not always up that high.
Early on in the MS game, it's easier to pick the low hanging fruit. So as you say, MSing for credit card bonuses is a high yield proposition. You need to be strategic in how you go about this because of Chase's 5/24 rule and AmEx's once in a lifetime rule. After a few years, signup bonuses are still possible, but it does get more difficult.
Abhilife is correct that we've got negatives. There is the cost of MS (though I do think you will learn ways to get your costs down), the time involved, and the risks (fraudulent activity). Other than the big scores for credit card signups, it's a slow game that requires persistence.
Why do I do it?
- I don't travel for business and I don't run a business that has large expenditures that I can put on credit cards. So I don't have any other way of building large stashes of travel reward points. If you can easily earn points in other ways, the time/cost/risk of MS may just not be worthwhile.
- I enjoy travel, and I like to treat my wife, so this is a way that we can see the world together that also allows me to treat her like my queen. The special places we can visit and the shared memories are very valuable to me. Building our reward accounts permits us to fly up front for only a mild cost and to stay in nicer accommodations. Also, MS allows us to achieve status with a variety of programs, and I know she enjoys this as well. Treating her, and enabling us to travel at a more modest cost, are my prime motivations.
- MS is a game and a challenge. I enjoy the challenge (at least, most of the time).
- I do try to be careful about the costs and the time involved. The reward points we earn are a commodity that gradually loses value because the airlines can make it harder or more costly to redeem (this means you, American Airlines) and the hotel programs periodically devalue their programs. I feel that spending too much to MS for points whose value is likely to decline in the future is a mistake. Also, putting too much time in (to the detriment of the other important parts of my life) is an error.
- I don't drink heavily, I don't smoke, and I don't use any illicit drugs. So this is my one bad habit.
So, are we crazy here in the MS forum? Maybe, but it's a calculated craziness.
Last edited by GetawaysRus; Sep 30, 2017 at 10:51 am
Sep 30, 2017, 1:22 pm
#312
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 523
What a great post, and so true. Sometimes I have stop myself from going too far. What starts off as a trip to Simon ends up Simon, then S&S, then CVS... It's a borderline addiction and you have to be able to control it or else it could consume you.
Sep 30, 2017, 3:01 pm
#313
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ONT
Programs: AGR, UA, AA
Posts: 476
Also you have to have a plan to burn. It is not good to sit on thousands of points with no exit strategy. And if you're not burning them, stop earning them. I've basically done that and been more selective at what I do, and not applying for more credit cards in programs I am unlikely to ever use.
Sep 30, 2017, 8:27 pm
#314
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PDX
Programs: Don't think it matters...
Posts: 5,240
Even then, was not aware of this whole MS stuff
- I don't travel for business and I don't run a business that has large expenditures that I can put on credit cards. So I don't have any other way of building large stashes of travel reward points. If you can easily earn points in other ways, the time/cost/risk of MS may just not be worthwhile.
- I enjoy travel...Building our reward accounts permits us to fly up front for only a mild cost and to stay in nicer accommodations. Also, MS allows us to achieve status with a variety of programs, and I know she enjoys this as well. Treating her, and enabling us to travel at a more modest cost, are my prime motivations.
- I enjoy travel...Building our reward accounts permits us to fly up front for only a mild cost and to stay in nicer accommodations. Also, MS allows us to achieve status with a variety of programs, and I know she enjoys this as well. Treating her, and enabling us to travel at a more modest cost, are my prime motivations.
While I do travel for work, it all has to be paid by company corp card
..Also travel is not well defined but sporadic , so building up reward accounts for personal travel is always helpful
I am more more inclined to do this for all the reward points & miles, than save a few basis points by gaming it.. BUT, who knows when a great deal arises (which I am aware will be tough to get unless we are experts at this).
If that hobby pays us back , cheery on the cake
Sep 30, 2017, 8:36 pm
#315
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PDX
Programs: Don't think it matters...
Posts: 5,240
You may have to open accounts at FIs in YOUR area, gauge if they're MS friendly and start your MO deposits and ramp up slowly. The worse thing that can happen is you'll get shutdown if the FI does not like what you're doing. Social networking is vital in this 'hobby', learn how to build bridges, don't be an a$$ if you want people to help you. Stay away from "user friendly" people, they are those who just take without sharing valuable info that'll benefit you.
As you go along, you will stumble on a lot of opportunities that let you MS for free, know how to keep that a secret so you can keep enjoying it for a long time or else, once you leak it in public forums, expect several thousands to try it and you can expect a shutdown in a few days. That is the quickest way to kill a deal. Last, but not the least, if you find a good source to buy your VGCs and/or MOs, don't post an invite to the whole MS community unless you're willing to give up your precious store.
As you go along, you will stumble on a lot of opportunities that let you MS for free, know how to keep that a secret so you can keep enjoying it for a long time or else, once you leak it in public forums, expect several thousands to try it and you can expect a shutdown in a few days. That is the quickest way to kill a deal. Last, but not the least, if you find a good source to buy your VGCs and/or MOs, don't post an invite to the whole MS community unless you're willing to give up your precious store.
So it seems, there are ways to reduce the cost's.. hmmm.. I guess these are those offers I read about.. $20 off 100 / 300 etc etc , 5x / 10x point offers (its a guess)
I found one helpful PO which I have used till now..
Just took one CC yet and got the spends done in less than 2 weeks BUT with 70% of real spends..
Atleast till now, don't want to MS till I find a more lucrative way to get points / miles for the amount spent.. so will keep learning on this forum.