MS Risk ?
Jun 29, 2014, 10:11 pm
#61
Join Date: May 2014
Location: New York
Posts: 391
Just by way of a general elaboration (it's late and I'm not going to start pulling out my notes and pulling cases on Westlaw):
Say you invite LEO in to paint you in the nude while he asks you about your GC MS activities, which are completely and irrefutably above board. As he's preparing to paint a perfect likeness of your startling beauty, he opens a container of paint and it spills all over the room. As he runs to grab the nearest thing with which to blot the oil paints, which happens to be your blouse (because you removed it so that he could paint you nude), he stumbles into the garbage pail. As the garbage pail rolls across the room, its contents come pouring out in its path. Lo and behold, a receipt for a MO pops out and lands right at LEO's feet. Out of LEO's mouth comes, "Well, gawsh darn little lady, it's mighty suspicious that you're getting money orders, what with this fancy house and all. I'd never have thunk that you couldn't get a checking account!" Even though you've already explained your GC MS satisfactorily to LEO, he now has a whole new thing to investigate. Worse, he doesn't understand your explanation of the MO. LEO goes to a judge and gets a search warrant to search your house...
Assuming you're not doing anything illegal, the result is just a lot of wasted time and unnecessary aggravation. But do you really want to go through it? Yes, it's not likely that they'll wrongfully convict you, but they could give you a really hard time before they let it all go...
Say you invite LEO in to paint you in the nude while he asks you about your GC MS activities, which are completely and irrefutably above board. As he's preparing to paint a perfect likeness of your startling beauty, he opens a container of paint and it spills all over the room. As he runs to grab the nearest thing with which to blot the oil paints, which happens to be your blouse (because you removed it so that he could paint you nude), he stumbles into the garbage pail. As the garbage pail rolls across the room, its contents come pouring out in its path. Lo and behold, a receipt for a MO pops out and lands right at LEO's feet. Out of LEO's mouth comes, "Well, gawsh darn little lady, it's mighty suspicious that you're getting money orders, what with this fancy house and all. I'd never have thunk that you couldn't get a checking account!" Even though you've already explained your GC MS satisfactorily to LEO, he now has a whole new thing to investigate. Worse, he doesn't understand your explanation of the MO. LEO goes to a judge and gets a search warrant to search your house...
Assuming you're not doing anything illegal, the result is just a lot of wasted time and unnecessary aggravation. But do you really want to go through it? Yes, it's not likely that they'll wrongfully convict you, but they could give you a really hard time before they let it all go...
Jun 29, 2014, 10:16 pm
#62
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,273
I am not not going to give any details on which LEOs, which charges, which techniques, etc. It's trivially easy for a LEO to reopen a case, reseek warrants, etc. And I don't need to be an unintentional co-conspirator for anyone who decides to reverse engineer my experience ... and then run afoul of a LEO who clumsily casts a wide net.
Let it bear repeating, what I did was legal. What happened to me is what happened to someone who had not committed a crime.
What would I do differently? Frankly, I would have had better communications with my spouse ahead of time, about what I was doing, the applicable laws and the various risks and benefits. As it was, when LEO came to visit, some of their accusations were quite detailed and quite unexpected. So for a short period of time, my spouse doubted my innocence.
Fortunately, thanks to respected, knowledgeable friends and legal counsel, we had the discussions after the fact that restored our marriage.
Let it bear repeating, what I did was legal. What happened to me is what happened to someone who had not committed a crime.
What would I do differently? Frankly, I would have had better communications with my spouse ahead of time, about what I was doing, the applicable laws and the various risks and benefits. As it was, when LEO came to visit, some of their accusations were quite detailed and quite unexpected. So for a short period of time, my spouse doubted my innocence.
Fortunately, thanks to respected, knowledgeable friends and legal counsel, we had the discussions after the fact that restored our marriage.
Sounds crappy. Glad it worked out.
Jun 29, 2014, 10:23 pm
#64
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,273
A bit of non-attorney insight on how the legal system works ...
The way it was explained to me ... unless and until formal charges are filed and the case has proceeded to the discovery phase, LEOs are not obligated to tell you what/who/why/where/when/how you came to their attention or were deemed worthy of active investigation.
So they don't tell you anything.
They ask questions and expect answers. And then they ask more questions, and expect more answers.
At some point they stop asking you questions. They don't have to explain why they stopped asking questions. So they don't.
In a post 9/11 world, they don't need to tell you that you are cleared. So they don't.
So I don't know what/who/why/where/when/how I came to their attention or was deemed worthy of active investigation.
I don't know if the LEO that contacted my family was the originator, the sole agency or just the agency that won the jurisdictional coin toss.
I don't know if I was the sole focal point of a special investigation or whether I was just bycatch from some other fishing expedition.
And they never told me I was cleared. And absolutely no one ever said they were sorry. All I know is one day I went online and my assets were no longer frozen.
Since it did not go to trial, it's never actually over.
I will say a few things that are more my opinion than absolute fact.
First, much of MS might seem very simple and straightforward to all of us. But think back to the first time you tried to explain it to your spouse. It's simple to us only because we swim in it, some of us for a decade or more. So when LEOs get involved their first thoughts are drugs or terrorism. Because that's their bias. And while you might not appear to be a drug lord or global terrorist, criminal front men look innocent, too.
LEOs also don't have CPAs, or MBAs or experience in ACH or the rest of the MS TLAs. So they can and do get confused. And in a post 9/11 world, AML is a space where it seems you are guilty until proven innocent. If that means innocent people get hassled, they get hassled. Such is the price of the war on terror.
There are elements of inanity and randomness similar to what happens with TSA at the airport. Except the TSA doesn't make house calls. That I know of.
I did not break any law, MS-related or otherwise.
Finally, there seems to be a code of silence amongst MSers who have received similar legal attention. I am hardly the only one who has won the LEO lottery. Seems I am the only one who has broken that code of silence. For some reason that is surprising to me.
Perhaps some of the others will be more willing to share their details.
The way it was explained to me ... unless and until formal charges are filed and the case has proceeded to the discovery phase, LEOs are not obligated to tell you what/who/why/where/when/how you came to their attention or were deemed worthy of active investigation.
So they don't tell you anything.
They ask questions and expect answers. And then they ask more questions, and expect more answers.
At some point they stop asking you questions. They don't have to explain why they stopped asking questions. So they don't.
In a post 9/11 world, they don't need to tell you that you are cleared. So they don't.
So I don't know what/who/why/where/when/how I came to their attention or was deemed worthy of active investigation.
I don't know if the LEO that contacted my family was the originator, the sole agency or just the agency that won the jurisdictional coin toss.
I don't know if I was the sole focal point of a special investigation or whether I was just bycatch from some other fishing expedition.
And they never told me I was cleared. And absolutely no one ever said they were sorry. All I know is one day I went online and my assets were no longer frozen.
Since it did not go to trial, it's never actually over.
I will say a few things that are more my opinion than absolute fact.
First, much of MS might seem very simple and straightforward to all of us. But think back to the first time you tried to explain it to your spouse. It's simple to us only because we swim in it, some of us for a decade or more. So when LEOs get involved their first thoughts are drugs or terrorism. Because that's their bias. And while you might not appear to be a drug lord or global terrorist, criminal front men look innocent, too.
LEOs also don't have CPAs, or MBAs or experience in ACH or the rest of the MS TLAs. So they can and do get confused. And in a post 9/11 world, AML is a space where it seems you are guilty until proven innocent. If that means innocent people get hassled, they get hassled. Such is the price of the war on terror.
There are elements of inanity and randomness similar to what happens with TSA at the airport. Except the TSA doesn't make house calls. That I know of.
I did not break any law, MS-related or otherwise.
Finally, there seems to be a code of silence amongst MSers who have received similar legal attention. I am hardly the only one who has won the LEO lottery. Seems I am the only one who has broken that code of silence. For some reason that is surprising to me.
Perhaps some of the others will be more willing to share their details.
Jun 29, 2014, 10:42 pm
#65
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,273
I don't necessarily agree with you on this, if your guilty of something, Yes remain silent, but if you have nothing to hide....
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
Jun 30, 2014, 2:46 am
#66
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
I don't necessarily agree with you on this, if your guilty of something, Yes remain silent, but if you have nothing to hide....
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
If I am innocent I have nothing to hide, but I am still going to need ammo just in case now. If I am innocent then they shouldn't have come to me to begin with. If their visit somehow 'costs' me, I may need a way to go after them too. Having the lawyer present may help with that.
Jun 30, 2014, 4:44 am
#67
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 175
Jun 30, 2014, 6:38 am
#68
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
For the fraud, audit, legal and law enforcement types amongst us? I would be interested, but many of the peers are more lurkers than posters. 
This discussion raises an interesting question: Would people be interested in a thread with legal issues related to MS?
No lawyer with half a brain will actually answer individual questions or provide legal advice (malpractice implications and ethics issues), but it does seem like a generalized thread could be useful...
No lawyer with half a brain will actually answer individual questions or provide legal advice (malpractice implications and ethics issues), but it does seem like a generalized thread could be useful...
Jun 30, 2014, 6:47 am
#69
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
MM - you should no that there are no innocents to The Spanish Inquisition! 
(Cardinal) Biggles That's enough. (to Lady Mountback) Now, how do you plead?
Lady Mountback We're innocent.
(Cardinal) Ximinez Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! (Diabolical Laughter)
(Cardinal) Biggles We'll soon change your mind about that!
But at least the court said they can't take your phone for evidence now so you can at least make your one last phone call...
(Cardinal) Biggles That's enough. (to Lady Mountback) Now, how do you plead?
Lady Mountback We're innocent.
(Cardinal) Ximinez Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! (Diabolical Laughter)
(Cardinal) Biggles We'll soon change your mind about that!
But at least the court said they can't take your phone for evidence now so you can at least make your one last phone call...
I dont nec agree with you on that. For one, make the LEO work for it. Secondly, you dont wanna do or say something you shouldnt. And finally, with the atty present, you have a second witness and some form of accountability should the LEO twist what you said later.
If I am innocent I have nothing to hide, but I am still going to need ammo just in case now. If I am innocent then they shouldn't have come to me to begin with. If their visit somehow 'costs' me, I may need a way to go after them too. Having the lawyer present may help with that.
If I am innocent I have nothing to hide, but I am still going to need ammo just in case now. If I am innocent then they shouldn't have come to me to begin with. If their visit somehow 'costs' me, I may need a way to go after them too. Having the lawyer present may help with that.
Jun 30, 2014, 6:51 am
#70
Join Date: May 2009
Location: MSP
Programs: AA, DL, AS
Posts: 183
I don't necessarily agree with you on this, if your guilty of something, Yes remain silent, but if you have nothing to hide....
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
What's the point of going through the extra loophole, and making yourself look guilty.
IMHOP: Innocent people do not immediately ask for their attorneys.
Our criminal justice system is adversarial. It isn't a friendly get together in search of the truth, it's a contest to see who has the story that the jury will believe. You had better believe that the deck is stacked in favor of the prosecution, not you.
Innocent people at charged, tried and convicted every day.
Going to trial in criminal court could easily bankrupt you.
A felony conviction is a near guarantee of being unemployable, and you run a good chance of losing family and and the near certainty of having your assets stripped.
Innocent people have the most to lose and the most reason to lawyer up early on. Any other course of action is naive, and if you have a family negligent.
Last edited by ceverett; Jun 30, 2014 at 7:02 am Reason: clarity
Jun 30, 2014, 6:53 am
#71
Join Date: May 2009
Location: MSP
Programs: AA, DL, AS
Posts: 183
When they are at your door, ask for an attorney.
Last edited by ceverett; Jun 30, 2014 at 6:54 am Reason: misspelling
Jun 30, 2014, 7:02 am
#72
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: BOS, MHT
Programs: AA ltg, B6, DL, UA, AS, SPG/Marriott Plt, HH, Hyatt
Posts: 10,052
Adk i cant make that call. Verizons only dead spot in the entire country happens to be in my house and down the street lol
Anyway ive informed my family that i would rathet go down fighting than let these cats get the best of me.
Anyway ive informed my family that i would rathet go down fighting than let these cats get the best of me.
Jun 30, 2014, 7:03 am
#73
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
Jun 30, 2014, 7:08 am
#74
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
Cats? I thought someone said they were vampires. Wait a minute - maybe they are cat people? Did one of them look like Nastassja Kinski and carry a big snake?
http://en.wikicollecting.org/nastass...ake-photograph
Uh, oh - I feel some bad David Bowie karaoke coming...
"...See this cash so green
I can MS for a thousand years..."
http://en.wikicollecting.org/nastass...ake-photograph
Uh, oh - I feel some bad David Bowie karaoke coming...
"...See this cash so green
I can MS for a thousand years..."
Jun 30, 2014, 7:53 am
#75
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 235
Note: The following is what has happened to me. It may or may not happen to you. For all you know it may never have happened to me. It should not be considered legal advice or anything other than data points that may or may not be truthful from some interweb idiot you've never met. I take no responsibility for any actions you might take in your attempts to prove you are a bigger idiot than I am.
why the disclaimer?