Originally Posted by austin_modern (Post 20350969)

I was not "late" during the mint discussion - I chose to not participate, as it seemed very close to money laundering (SAR) in addition to being a bit unethical and for lack of better words cheating our government out of money. Of course buying 10k coins isnt a big deal and the 3M that idiot put through it.

Before you say, I'm not jealous... Im just cautious that messing with the government on that scale and cycling that much cash borders on a federal crime.

Originally Posted by dukeboy (Post 20354910)

I don't believe the story is real.

"So Wilson pulled out his rewards card and bought nearly $3 million in coins.

Not all at once, of course. But over the course of eight months, he would have thousands of dollars in coins delivered at a time, then walk them into the bank and deposit them into his account. "

$3,000,000 x 8.1g/coin = 24.3 tons
that is 3 tons of coins each month.

Originally Posted by bobfather (Post 20358163)

So if that math is right, he was either depositing 12.5k per day at a single bank. In which SARs were most definitely filled out, and the US government really dropped the ball at looking into this guy.

OR he deposited smaller amounts into several banks daily. AKA structuring, punishable by a fine and up to five years in prison. Does someone want to ask him what he was doing? :)

Originally Posted by rajin (Post 20358463)

He wasn't doing anything illegal. Why should he (or any of us) fear a SAR? Ooh, some agent might take a look. There's nothing criminal here and it's nonsense to imply there is.

Originally Posted by bobfather (Post 20358486)

Nobody should fear a SAR for manufactured spend, but if he was depositing 12.5k daily then the banks would eventually be filling out SARs left and right. He did not list an enormous IRS audit as part of his "strategy", so I expect there was none.

Thus, unless he's lying about his take, he was structuring, which is a crime.

That is all I am saying.

Originally Posted by Stoughton (Post 20358641)

Complete speculation. If the bankers knew what he was doing, and with those levels, they very likely did, there's no reason to fil out an SAR.

Originally Posted by andysiz (Post 20354849)

I would not be so dismissive. It was not money laundering (though, the activities may have triggered SARs), but it was fraud. I do not think most are in danger of actually being prosecuted, but if the federal government wanted to, it could definitely build and win a case against those that practiced the coin business on a large enough scale. As in most fraud cases, the critical element is scienter (intent/knowledge) -- here, the oft-repeated cycle of purchasing coins and depositing most if not all of those coins straight into the bank would be more than enough to demonstrate scienter (note: in most jurisdictions, common law and most statutory fraud claims need not show actual knowledge or intent to defraud, but that the speaker/actor acted recklessly). (Remind yourselves of the fraud case that was built against the guys who defrauded Nordstroms/BigCrumbs by buying merchandise, getting the rebates, and returning items to Nordstroms and keeping rebate, though not sure which rebate company exactly.)

In fact, I'm pretty sure that a technical case could be made under the False Claims Act; qui tam lawsuits could be brought. But the bottom line, as I said above, is that no one would care enough (more accurately: hard to pin enough government losses to a single defendant) to bring the case. The DOJ is probably not going to take up a lawsuit for a $10,000 case involving the Mint.

Originally Posted by dontippet (Post 20357949)

I thought the same thing. That also translates to an average of $12,500 per day or $87,500 per week. How you could churn that much so quickly is beyond me.

Originally Posted by AlohaDaveKennedy (Post 20360122)

Depositing $75k a day in a single bank was actually not very hard. Heavy duty roller bags work wonders.:cool:

Originally Posted by bobfather (Post 20359448)

Really funny to see all the bloggers white knighting the bloggers. Carry on folks!

Originally Posted by AlohaDaveKennedy (Post 20360094)

No fraud. Fearless Leader's own people said no crime was committed.:cool:

Originally Posted by andysiz (Post 20360456)

Like I said, not trying to raise alarm bells but pointing out what may be technically misunderstood (or debatable at worst). I would feel very little comfort by the loose statement of a spokesperson (and its weight in a criminal proceeding) if I were confronting a US Attorney (or AUSAs) who knows the law and is motivated to prosecute. Nor would I feel good about having the scheme explained to a grand jury. Wire fraud can be quite all encompassing.

Again, I doubt there was/is/or will be any pressure to prosecute. Too few $$$ at play for most individuals, and it seems the federal govt was more embarrassed by the colossal failure of the program (from their perspective, not you minters') and couldn't wait to get past even the minimal media scrutiny they got (the impetus for shutting down the program).