Happy

CVS already has the mechanism in place - what do you think why they need to get your ID info to put in the system?

WMT POS would prompt the cashier to get your SSN if you buy $3K or more. However WMT does not have the mechanism to prevent you going from one location to the other. However regardless how you "lay low" I bet your cashiers remember you - after all, buying large value of MOs is NOT the typical behavior of their clientele. Here comes to the particular store's policy, the attitude of the management which translates to the attitudes of the cashiers. Having some rapport with them can go a long way.

CJS415

Even with CC signup bonuses?

Chelski

It is not required. The WM form is not a SAR lol. It's an internal form used by WM. Only CASH, not debit, not credit, not gebit have any federal tracking requirements. Search this thread and you can read.

dothemath

Bank bonuses are considered interest that's why usually banks issue a 1099-int. CC sign up bonuses are not and I don't think you have to pay taxes on them.

marktelefono

You could also take 100k in cash and "gradually" buy MO's at Walmart with the cash, in all cases gradually buying something doesn't trigger reporting.

The answer to the question of whether there is a reporting requirement for buying money orders with a debit card could be answered by contacting Fincen or the relevant agency.

In all cases laws should be followed, but I'm not convinced that debit cards equal cash, or currency.

Chelski

If you did that you would be money laundering and structuring. You also would be using cash. The laws only target cash and that is for a reason. If you go buy a car with $30k cash guess what? The transaction has to be reported. If you wife $30k there is no reporting requirement. If you use CC or DC again no reporting requirement.

Andy2

I didn't say that it did. In fact, if you read back far enough you will find citations indicating that debit cards don't equal cash or currency.

I was pointing out a rational reason as to why WalMart chose to internally track this, and why an institution might choose to file Suspicious Activity Reports based on that tracking.

I believe there are penalties that the government can impose if it believes that Suspicious Activity Reports should be filed, but weren't. If it became known in criminal circles that buying money orders at WalMart was an essential step in laundering money because WalMart did no tracking, WalMart would seem to be at risk for such penalties and fines.

corpgator

They wouldn't seem to be, they would be at risk and would quickly be hammered with heavy fines once audits discovered they weren't filing the proper reports. Citi paid a $140 million fine for its Mexican operations and HSBC $1.9 billion both for not doing enough to report and prevent money. laundering.

diburning

Never said it was. If you clicked on the link and read the way the law is written, it merely says that records must be kept, but does not specify any sort of specific form (besides the SAR and CTR), so any sort of entity providing money service transactions comes up with their own. SARs are to be filed when the transaction is suspicious. Period. Not because of dollar amount.

Also, SARs are all filed electronically now, so any physical form claiming to be an SAR is an internal form designed to collect information for that purpose.

Remember, you know you're not doing anything wrong according to the law. But, WM (or anywhere else) may have the right to refuse to serve you if they think you're doing something wrong. As others have described in this thread, WM only hires "the best" and gives them "the best" training so once one of them comes to that conclusion, good luck convincing them otherwise!

Alcibiades

As a licensed MSB, Walmart is likely required to have some type of AML policy.

Chelski

Possibly maybe the best thing you can do is be suspicious coz then you can't get shutdown...

andyandy

Andy,

FinCen reporting/recording requirements do apply to purchases of pre-paid access cards, but only when the purchases are made with currency. In your hypothetical the profits from your heroin sales would trigger reporting when you laundered the currency into debit cards.

I guess I'm one of those "purists", LOL. But, then, you already knew that.

Andyandy

Andy2

You are conveniently ignoring the subjectiveness of the rules that allow the IRS and regulators to impose penalties for not filing SARs and for not getting rid of questionable customers. And the decision to file SARs is made largely by analyzing information that is tracked, including names and social security numbers. And the guidance (not a statute but verbiage in the instruction manual issued by FINCEN for SARs, if I remember correctly, instructs the money service organization to consider the stream as a whole. For instance, even though money orders are not cash, a bank is instructed to consider where and how the customer obtained the money orders.

There are a whole lot of places around a city where I can take my hypothetical heroin money and buy $500 prepaid gift cards one at a time without attracting much suspicion or risk getting a SAR filed. But WalMart is one of the very few places where I can covert those prepaid gift cards to money orders, if I am concerned that some of my hypothetical questionable fellow roommates / heroin dealers might steal my prepaid gift cards before I can spend them (just like I was concerned about having that much cash around). And there are plenty of banks that I can slowly and gradually deposit those money orders into. And purists say there are no reporting requirements for the deposits of money orders anyway.

You say that the onus for reporting is with the many clerks at the many grocery stores and drugstores where the guy buys the prepaid gift cards with cash. If I am law enforcement, I say that the place that saw the most and should have been most suspicious is WalMart. So if law enforcement is pissed that the heroin dealer got 100k into the banking system without SARs being filed, I think they are going to penalize WalMart.

You are certainly technically correct on everything you say, but if WalMart hired you as their attorney to advise them on setting up their system, I am guessing that you might well advise them to get information and record it when people buy a lot of large denomination money orders, even if they are using prepaid debit cards. They are just protecting themselves against subjective penalties. I bet a lot of the banks who got some of the penalties mentioned by another poster had a legally correct position for each element, but it looked really bad when the whole picture comes into focus.

SteveT

It may not be WM requirement, but its the requirement of the issuer of Money Order, ie Money Gram, Western Union etc.

Mamibear

this reminds me of a female blogger who operate somewhere in NorCal where she says she found a WM who allows her to buy $10K in MOs (5 transactions of $2K each with 4 swipes of her VGCs) PLUS another $10K in B/P. Seems like she found a unicorn WM. you can read her story here . While a lot of people in NorCal/bay area are having a hard time liquidating their VGCs, her WM now allows her to buy up to $10K in one trip with the AP personnel's blessing. I consider this as one of those TGTBT stories that probably works for her with the manager onboard with her activities.