andyandy

Yes. Because that definition (from the Code of Federal Regulations) lies at the heart of the whole SAR/CTR system. Under current regulations, there can be no structuring when no currency is involved.

You're correct that it's irrelevant to the bank employee who's deciding whether to file a SAR. But it's quite relevant to the real issue here: is what the people on this board do actually structuring? It's not. My response is not so much directed at your post, which makes a fair point, but rather at the misconception that the non-currency transactions can be structured at all.

Andyandy

PenneyPincher

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you that it's not what it looks like it may be.

I do also feel, though, that we need to understand how doing what we do appears to be something that it's not, and therefor prevent an unpleasant rectal financial exam by handling things responsibly.

Gitangali

I read here 10K is the trigger for SAR. Is that per month, per transaction? or there is no such limit, whenever banks see unusual pattern, they can pull the trigger on SAR.

There is a great deal of confusion as to the above applies to cash or any activity?

The link here says even the transfers north of 3K can trigger SAR.

https://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infoba...al/OLM_015.htm

PenneyPincher

Since this link takes you to:

"Bank Secrecy Act
Anti-Money Laundering
Examination Manual"

and the next heading reads:

"Suspicious Activity Reporting—Overview"

And it continues.... outlining all of the things they expect a bank to be on the lookout for.... I would surmise that doing anything listed within this directive to banks on how to recognize suspicious activity and what to consider suspicious... could indeed cause an SAR to be filed on your behalf.... and you would NOT even know it!

MileageGoblin

For time reasons, I did $10k in MOs this morning at one store with the con being a SAR required. To my surprise, the WM CSR filled out two different sheets of paper. One was the regular form where they list the money order #s. The other I couldn't see as the CSR (who has always been odd) purposefully filled it out on the other side of the phone where I couldn't see it. Anyone know what that other form is? Just another SAR in different format?

digitalpop

This is actually somewhat simple.

SAR: SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Anything, anything at all, any bank employee, money services business employee, or someone else can file a SAR. You will NOT see it; it will be a form filed way after you are gone. They are trained to file when they are SUSPICIOUS of anything. Can be filed for a $1 deposit or $100k deposit. REQUIRED to be filed only if the activity is definitively criminal or is SUSPICIOUS to the employee, which can be anything. If you are transacting $1mil in cash per day, but it is considered UNsuspicious by the employee (they know you, they know your business, etc), they do NOT have to file a SAR. Goes to FINCEN.

CTR: CURRENCY TRANSACTION. Required by the IRS for any transaction involving CURRENCY over $10k. Currency is not MOs. Filed by the same tellers/employees as a SAR. If you are transacting $1mil in cash per day, but it is considered UNsuspicious by the employee, they still HAVE to file a CTR. MOs are not currency. (CAN be filed for anything [$5 debit card purchase], but not REQUIRED. Important to note since many institutions might file this anyway even for non-currency transactions). Goes to the IRS.

STRUCTURING: Executing financial transactions in order to avoid reporting requirements. If you INTENTIONALLY TRY to avoid a SAR or CTR, then you are structuring. Whether or not you can argue "intent to avoid reporting requirements" in a court of law, however, would boil down to your lawyer.

OTHER FORMS: Usually a requirement of the institution you are dealing with. ie, Walmart corporate form requirement, USPS requirement, Simon Mall requirement, etc. Does not directly relate to US federal government.

Laws may differ by state/local county. This is my understanding of US federal laws. IANAL.

@MileageGoblin: those were not "SARs in a different format". Those forms were probably a CTR and "OTHER FORMS" (ie, a Walmart-required record-keeping form). You wouldn't know if they decided to file a SAR.

MileageGoblin

Not true. There is a difference on what technically should be done according to the law and what WM CSRs do (YMMV based on CSR). Many here, including myself, have personally seen the form with the "Suspicious Activity" language on the top they use to record MO numbers. Whether that form actually get filed to corporate is only known by WM. My anecdotal evidence has been they just keep the forms in the binder.

I highly doubt they are doing a CTR form. I should have mentioned one form they wanted my phone number and the other (one I've seen before) my SSN. Seems like two reports of a similar nature.

tontod

I was asked to fill out a CTR at Walmart for getting just $6k in MOs, reason was I did that a 2nd time in 2-3 days time, 1st time I just filled out the Walmart form. Of course I went back a few days later, different CSR, got $6k in MOs no problem.

Gitangali

When you are buying VGCs worth several thousand dollars in a day at the same store, obviously you are not buying that from the same cashier for several reasons; You wan to fly under radar, not make it very obvious, they won't let you buy so many VGCs etc. So you buy VGCs, load prepaid accounts from several counters. Could this be considered structuring? There is no money involved here and no crime etc but structuring angle is there.

CWAL

I used to have that problem until the cashiers got used to me. There's still one or two cashiers that I know get concerned, but last time one of them spoke with their manager and came to the conclusion that the forms were only for cash transactions.

I don't think it's structuring per se if you know that a certain csr will not allow you to buy anything if you ask for a high number. In that case, maybe the csr is guilty of unintended structuring

IANAL, YYMV

Werewolfdad

I work in banking. That's not a CTR. At least not the official one. They are now filed electronically.

It may have been some intermediary form to report activity to their AML or whatever team. It was definitely not a CTR. FinCEN scolds banks and MSBs that fill out actual CTRs for transactions under $10k. And since there is no currency, they'd definitely get scolded.

Werewolfdad

It literally can't be structuring if there is no currency involved. It may very well be suspicious activity, but it is assuredly not structuring without actual cash or coin.

tontod

It said Currency Transaction Report at the top of the form. Made no sense to fill it out, walked away.

diburning

I'm sure they fill out a paper copy (my place of employment still has copies of the old paper form) to write down info while it's still available (customer's ID info, etc) to electronically file later.

Gitangali

From what you are saying, it will exclude entire MS activity from Structuring including MOs, as there is no actual cash or coin involved. Don't we have a tax attorney on the forum who can put this to rest once and for all?