New First from 2008!
Dec 20, 2006, 10:32 am
#46
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: bella italia
Programs: LH HON, AF FB Platinum
Posts: 633
Just my two cents: I am not unhappy with LH's F.
Okay, the IFE ist a little yesterday, but it works good.
Okay, there could be a better premium champagne, but what they offer is not too bad.
The seats are fine and comfortable and I like the 83 C always I'm using F.
And then there is the real wonderful service. I never had bas staff in F. And sometimes I've got handwritten personal welcome om my menu card.
I had some good experience from Germany via Dubai to Tokyo with Emirates. But it wont make me change forever.
So I think I'll be a loyal LH customer till 2011 and then retire.
Salve Luigi
Okay, the IFE ist a little yesterday, but it works good.
Okay, there could be a better premium champagne, but what they offer is not too bad.
The seats are fine and comfortable and I like the 83 C always I'm using F.
And then there is the real wonderful service. I never had bas staff in F. And sometimes I've got handwritten personal welcome om my menu card.
I had some good experience from Germany via Dubai to Tokyo with Emirates. But it wont make me change forever.
So I think I'll be a loyal LH customer till 2011 and then retire.
Salve Luigi
Dec 20, 2006, 12:51 pm
#47
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX HON Circle
Posts: 3,255
the answer results in the productivity:
Assuming the following:
- your personal average output is, let's say €100 per hour in First.
- Flight segment 11h (possible working time is 6h, the rest is for sleep and food),
Now, assuming that your productivity in C is 50% lesser than in F - ceteris paribus - your output in F is still €100 per hour, and therefore €50 in C (50% less than in F)
-->output in F: €600
-->output in C: €300
Ceteris paribus, initial cost difference of €19 seems to be covered by the output difference of €300.
Therefore the company loses €281 (300-19) per flight when their employee has to fly C. Based on the initial 24 segments per year that means €6744.
It's cheaper to fly F than C
qed
Dec 20, 2006, 2:40 pm
#48
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
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Dec 20, 2006, 3:54 pm
#50
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,505
This is easy:
the answer results in the productivity:
Assuming the following:
- your personal average output is, let's say €100 per hour in First.
- Flight segment 11h (possible working time is 6h, the rest is for sleep and food),
Now, assuming that your productivity in C is 50% lesser than in F - ceteris paribus - your output in F is still €100 per hour, and therefore €50 in C (50% less than in F)
-->output in F: €600
-->output in C: €300
Ceteris paribus, initial cost difference of €19 seems to be covered by the output difference of €300.
Therefore the company loses €281 (300-19) per flight when their employee has to fly C. Based on the initial 24 segments per year that means €6744.
It's cheaper to fly F than C
qed
the answer results in the productivity:
Assuming the following:
- your personal average output is, let's say €100 per hour in First.
- Flight segment 11h (possible working time is 6h, the rest is for sleep and food),
Now, assuming that your productivity in C is 50% lesser than in F - ceteris paribus - your output in F is still €100 per hour, and therefore €50 in C (50% less than in F)
-->output in F: €600
-->output in C: €300
Ceteris paribus, initial cost difference of €19 seems to be covered by the output difference of €300.
Therefore the company loses €281 (300-19) per flight when their employee has to fly C. Based on the initial 24 segments per year that means €6744.
It's cheaper to fly F than C
qed
Most people I know who only fly F do it because they want the best seat in the house regardless of cost.
My former boss told me after I asked him about the cost of all his full fare F tickets: "Well, somebody has to buy these seats, so it might as well be me"
To put it into perspective, he also regularly charterd a Gulfstream V to fly to New York at about € 100k a pop because he didn't fancy connecting in FRA...kind of cool though if business contacts want to pick you up at JFK and you can tell them you are flying into Westchester !
Dec 20, 2006, 4:06 pm
#51
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ZRH
Programs: LX HON Circle
Posts: 3,255
Dec 20, 2006, 4:24 pm
#52
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,505
Dec 20, 2006, 6:52 pm
#53
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, SQ PPS Solitaire
Posts: 3,600
[QUOTE=Triple3;6876595]So you believe to be in a position where you can judge this? 
QUOTE]
Well, I can proof it:
NRT-FRA return: new C = 6.500 EUR, F = 11.000 EUR
You wanna get from NRT to FRA, you wanna work, you wanna sleep:
Both products get you from NRT to FRA.
Both products give you the ability to work.
Both products give you the ability to sleep.
Disadvantage of F over C: -4.500 EUR
quod erat demonstrandum
Will review my calculation on NH F tomorrow (in O which makes perfect economic sense...).
QUOTE]Well, I can proof it:
NRT-FRA return: new C = 6.500 EUR, F = 11.000 EUR
You wanna get from NRT to FRA, you wanna work, you wanna sleep:
Both products get you from NRT to FRA.
Both products give you the ability to work.
Both products give you the ability to sleep.
Disadvantage of F over C: -4.500 EUR
quod erat demonstrandum
Will review my calculation on NH F tomorrow (in O which makes perfect economic sense...).
Dec 21, 2006, 3:04 am
#54
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FRA
Programs: LH SEN+, UA 1k, AA Plat, Solitaire PPS, BA Silver, :rolleyes:, :eek:
Posts: 2,679
So:
Oddly enough I get FRA-NRT-FRA in LH F for € 10k. Makes it € 3.5 k difference to C.
Reduce that by our coporate tax rate of 36%; new difference: € 2240.
I assume total time saved in FRA due to faster security checks in the FCT, the limo service, etc. to approx. 30 minutes That reduces the difference to € 1850.
Mileage difference between F and C is 11856. At an equivalent of approx 8 ct per mile (like FRA-LAX O RT with SEN companion award) this amounts to € 948.48. New difference: € 901.52.
These additional HON miles allow me to get the HON card "one flight earlier". My current commuter routing is FRA-SFO-FRA. Having HON status already on the ex-FRA segment will give me additional 2842 miles, which amounts to savings of € 227.36. New difference: € 674.16
I assume time saved in NRT due to faster deplaning, etc. to approx 20 minutes. --> New difference: € 424.16.
Now comes the return flight:
Time saved in FRA on return due to faster deplaning, etc.: 20 minutes. New difference: € 174.16.
So - without making any weird assumptions (like pricing in the additional baggage allowance in F) or pricing the higher employee satisfaction - we come to the conclusion that my company is paying approx. € 8 per hour more for me flying F. IMHO this is worth it, if not I'm open to any discussions with our travel dept. head.
Dec 21, 2006, 7:10 am
#55
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, SQ PPS Solitaire
Posts: 3,600
You guys are really funny. I am sure you can do the same calculation for why Hermés ties for EUR 160 make more economic sense than no name ties for EUR 15.
Fact is that your company (or your customer) is paying 50% more than necessary to get you in a decent way from A to B. I am in banking and the times where any second rated assistant in investment banking was flying F(because it made so much economic sense) are over.
Fact is that your company (or your customer) is paying 50% more than necessary to get you in a decent way from A to B. I am in banking and the times where any second rated assistant in investment banking was flying F(because it made so much economic sense) are over.
Dec 21, 2006, 7:41 am
#56
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FRA
Programs: LH SEN+, UA 1k, AA Plat, Solitaire PPS, BA Silver, :rolleyes:, :eek:
Posts: 2,679
Dec 21, 2006, 1:12 pm
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,505
The really funny thing is that I hardly ever see anyone actually working in F !
I would also tend to argue that more people actually workin in C during the flight than in F.
I would also tend to argue that more people actually workin in C during the flight than in F.
Dec 21, 2006, 3:59 pm
#59
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FRA
Programs: LH, Avis, Hyatt, ...
Posts: 4,213
So, of course the average corporate tax in Germany is ~39% currently and not 55%. Sorry for that mistake in my calculations, which however doesn't change that much.
Originally Posted by Rambuster
The really funny thing is that I hardly ever see anyone actually working in F !
I would also tend to argue that more people actually workin in C during the flight than in F.
I would also tend to argue that more people actually workin in C during the flight than in F.