totti

^ Sounds like a great solution but keep in mind that there are always some lawyers who want to earn some money as well

SleepOverGreenland

Cities of Offenbach, R�sselsheim, Mainz, Wiesbaden and others are proud, that they did "built" enough savings to fight against any FRAPORT growing in order to protect their citizens.

IIRC, we are talking about "savings" of about 80 Million Euro to spend. 80 Million Euro taxes paid by all of us.

FRAPORT has at least spend the same amount of money to fight back. And I believe Frankfurt, State of Hessen and Germany have to pay many millions for process treatments.

But there is no way around, it is the law.

And the end result on the horizon is easy to summarize:
- new runway will come, later than scheduled
- new T3 will come, later than scheduled
- Many millions spend for nothing (see above), but delays
- Many millions additional cost for delays and inconvenience at FRA in the meantime

flysurfer

Thank God there's still MUC.

Threy

There is an interview with MUC CEO Doc Kerkloh in the 09 Exclusive edition, where he expects the third runway to be operational by 2011.

One should also not underestimate that the complex between T2 and the commuter aircraft parking area has a fully functional luggage handling system, so basically the terminal building can be built on top of it without the time consuming ground work + systems.

While T1 is underutilised and even more long haul flights ex MUC need even more feeding, at least theoretically ( profitable ) growth is easier to achieve at MUC.

FRA is a mess and will always be a mess, same with DUS. At some point, one has to realise that a high speed rail system can do 350-400 km/h per hour easily, so airport locations 100 km away from the metro areas need to be considered.

flysurfer

Of course, the approval process for those trains is at least as difficult, expensive and frustrating to go through as any airport expansion. At least in Germany. Hence you need to go to PVG to ride the German train.

Threy

I am pretty sure that the approval process would have been easier, if we had suitable tracks for such trains.

Berlin-Hamburg is cheaper and not much slower on the ICE, Dortmund-Duesseldorf was dreamed up by complete idiots and the MUC Transrapid is also not really needed, if you just add a more direct S-Bahn that does not stop at any obscure location.

Quite frankly, both the passenger numbers for the proposed Transrapid to/from MUC and the passenger numbers for BBI and the 800 million railway station are pure fiction, IMO, but at least for BBI, some Prof. from Cologne was found that dreamed up an obscure business plan.

I guess DB offered good old Wiesheu a nice premium as well for changing jobs..

weero

Unfortunately, laws can be toppled by lobbies and it happens more and more
often.
I would hail the stall of FRA's growth as I don't think that the place can be
saved. If it can grow further, it will forever be the unpleasant mess it presents
itself today.
Germany is big enough for several megahubs, and a bit of competition between
them would serve the pax.
Fully understandable - the TGV/Shinkansen alike trains consume a huge amount
of terrain and are incredibly noisy. And then they kill all kind of wildlife.
I think of it as a positive side of Germany that policiticans and enterpreneurs cannot
readily cut through villages, other private properties, and forests to satisfy the
"need" of the invisible economy. I wished, one could also adopt a scheme which
requires compensation of property owners for traffic noise and emission at market
prices, similar to what Western Australia does implement.

SleepOverGreenland

I don't understand that statement. If FRA has to stay as is, it will stay as the unpleasant mess as of today. A new T3 with 40+ gates and build to current most modern understandings of airport construction may avoid from the mess in the future. Many of the current mess is based on new regulations, as introduced after 9/11, and now keeps going forever. Unlike MUC recently and probably BBI sometimes it is difficult to always start from scratch, when things change (e.g. Schengen/Non-Schengen, separate US screening etc.).

FRA is one of the about 10 airports in the world to serve 50+ Million pax a year. In comparison with ATL, ORD, LAX, LHR, CDG, I would think, FRA is not so bad. And IIRC none of the mentioned airports plans to move and/or close for another and better airport. There is always room for improvements, like ATL with 5th runway and new Int'l Terminal. Or like FRA with 4th runway and T3.

sentom

^ completely agree with you here! i dont like the bus gates either but i have to deal with it all the time since my flights to/from SZG always get a remote parking stand... unless i arrive in FRA on LH F... then is everything fine

SleepOverGreenland

At least FRA offers tarmac parking positions. It is unconvenient, but the process doesn't stop. Unlike LAX and ORD for example. I would always go for the bus rather then wait 70 minutes after a 11h flight for the next free gate.

weero

I completely agree with you.
But even with a new T3, FRA still has the same amount of busses and bus drivers
and it has the same board and rulers it features today.
So I bear no hope that FRA will ever change to the better. Hence a cap on
FRA's growth would make other hubs prosper. And maybe the new MUC or
BER will be more streamlined and less bus infested than FRA.

weero

But of course there's hope that those Flying Lawyers show some understanding
for the problems involved ....
I waited 45 minutes on FRA's tarmac until the ladder was found and busses were
available. I never waited more than 10 minutes for a gate in ORD or LAX. Though
in the LAX case, I ought to admit that I have not much experience with it.

Oldthinker

The obvious, and arguably less attractive, alternative would be walking from a bus gate all the way to the plane...

Flying Lawyer

We have

And believe me or not: At least for Schengen or domestic flights I like the bus gate. It is much more convenient than A38 and it save a lot of rambling in that huge airport. Arriving at the domestic bus gate brings me into a suburban train or into a taxi shortly after arrival (at the busgate).

flysurfer

Oh, I have waited a lot at LAX. Each time when we arrived early, every minute gained was eventually lost by waiting for a gate to clear. LH, UA, international, domestic, - didn't matter. In LHR, we even had to wait when we tried to push back, as another a/c was blocking the exit. And once, I even had to wait in MUC once for a few minutes, as our gate was not available.

Btw, for their on-time statistics, do airlines count the moment of touch-down or the arrival time at the gate?