Is the new SEN useful to anyone? not for me...

Old Apr 2, 2024, 6:05 am
  #61  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,598
Originally Posted by sw1x
Likely a case where someone got SEN relatively late in life.
Under the old system you could expect an invitation at the age of 60 if you had had SEN status for the 10 consecutive prior years and had accrued 1mn miles if I recall correctly.
That will no longer do.
In his case, as per report of the other poster, he may also be fairly young and fly a lot.
worldclubber is online now  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 6:08 am
  #62  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 7,955
Originally Posted by st8dm
the810 , worldclubber , hugolover
Thanks for replying, guys, but I'm afraid you're missing the point. The only one who seems to get it is LioM : the whole set of advantages of being SEN is only useful when you're flying "ECO + SEN = benefits". If I fly J, why do I even bother with loyalty? For AF? is that all?
Again, due to the high threshold and 'calendar year' timeframe, the passenger benefits from being SEN for only a very, very short period.

worldclubber , Fennario - you mention you fly a lot in F. Great! You don't need SEN anyway! That's my whole point.
But a SEN does not only ever fly longhaul F/C. Whether on private trips, or shorter business trips due to modern policies (mandatory eco under 6hrs is absolutely typical). Those are the days you want to have your status; plus the occasions when you are in C, but your SEN status gives you preference in irrops etc.

Originally Posted by FlyerLX
Yes but its a win: your business which earns lounge access goes elsewhere, while the ancillary business, which earns no lounge access, also goes elsewhere and no longer fills up the lounge leaving more space for those who pay for it.
And less seats filled in LH airplances and less money in her coffers.

Originally Posted by st8dm
I think we have a philosophical difference here... Meanwhile, please convince Putin to not nuke us... we still love this decadent and broken west...
But we're drifting - please meet me on the 'Socrates' forum (wherever that would be)
The decadence part is not the problem, the crumbling and outdated infrastructure is the problem. Different places deal with this issue differently, FRA is particularly bad at it.

Originally Posted by st8dm
Concerto , FlyerLX 2. BristolTraveller - I don't think so. They couldn't care less. Business is business, and this is good for them.

The corporate world needs strong reform here, and I must partially agree with
hugolover that something is broken in the West. The bonus-to-bonus-to-next-shareholder-meeting-and-repeat is such short-sighted that it completely skews the perspective.

I am trying to think of a board I encountered in the past 20y that was preoccupied with anything beyond the next 12 months (in rare cases, 18 months).
Only family businesses (e.g. Bosch, BMW) are truly investing in their future.
Financial performance is everything these days - and don't get me wrong, it should be, but long-term vision needs to be included.
We're building a future stacking on-top Legos made of extremely short-term objectives. Eventually, it will collapse.

100% agree. Now the question is, is there something we can do to change it or do we just adapt and vote with our wallets?


Originally Posted by st8dm
The funny fact is that loyalty programs are usually worth more than the airline itself. It will take another board to prioritize this.

It would be interesting to see a valuation of LHG vs. MM.
I'd be very surprised if the money weren't on MM's side.
But it's not the SEN, HON, points and QP part that's so valuable. It's the award parts and customer data that's valuable. i.e. not the Frequent Flier part. The programs make a lot of their money from credit cars as well, that have absolutely zero to do with flying at all.

Originally Posted by CHCflyer
From what I have read, business travellers are on the decline, and travel policies get less and less generous. High end leisure travellers (ie infrequent but pay big $$s) are populating many J and F-cabins, but they are also jetting off to Maldives, Caribbean or Asian resorts and not Cleveland or Abuja. There is also greater population mobility meaning the VFR market is also fuelling airline expansion. I see this on many airlines I fly (I do about 200/year, with long haul always in J).

One form of overcrowding may replace another if airlines see a fall in its corporates. The volume of corporates may be replaced by the less frequent flyers determined to maximise their lounge benefits.
Leisure is definitely on the up and up. And that's also driving the changes in FFPs, the extra business that can bring is much less available in form of higher fares, but rather more pax on lower fares.
The mechanisms to enforce a higher fare, which used to exist and commonly be used, like requiring a Flex fare from a corporate TA which would have force Y, B, M not too long ago. Today, that just does not work, for many reasons including those that K, L, T can be just as Flex as B or M, and those that there is no more physical TA to ticket a more expensive ticket manually....

But a pax can easily book an extra LH trip, or upfare from Y to J, either because they have earned the status organically, or because they see they only need a couple points to reach one.

Originally Posted by st8dm
the810 - you mention adults in their 30s...
let's revisit that once they're +50... when they believe they earned some comfort and respect (even if that's untrue) and can't cope with the aggressive attitude of low-cost carriers.

Sometimes, the LCCs remind me of Romanian/Bulgarian traffic police in the '90s: it didn't matter what you were doing; if you were driving on their streets, you needed to pay them something extra just because that's life. And treat you like s**t in the meantime. It's the same with all LCCs.

I stopped flying LCCs when the pandemic hit. I had +3000EUR in booked flights with LH and just a couple with LCCs. LH paid me back to the last cent. It took them 9 months, but they did.
Wizz, on the other hand, flew empty. I mean 0 passengers. And claimed everyone was a 'no show'. I will not fly LCCs again.
I find this last point hard to believe. I have not heard any worse stories from LCCs that I have from legacies, in fact often quite the opposite.

the810s point is true of actively working adults of many ages, more so in their 30s who scarcely have the good days to remember, but also 50+. The "earned comfort and respect" of LHG is increasingly a mirage. You get a cup of water over what you get with W6 or FR intra-EU. And you are forced to pay for a carryon which you might or might not want (many people will be quite happy to pay for one checked bag over four rollaboards). Free ASR? Forget it. Free checked bag? Not even HONs get those.

Legacy airlines today only have these points to compete with:

1a. Network. They can offer a connection in short/mid haul where p2p is not feasible.
1b. Network. They can offer a connection in long haul.

2. J. Which... let's be honest. For the price paid? Rarely worth the extra expense by any objective measure, if you have an LCC alternative available.

Originally Posted by worldclubber
Really, how that!

Sounds like a rare case.
Should be pretty common for younger HONs. And SENs who started early as well.

Originally Posted by worldclubber
That's plausible.

But he said he was really far away from achieving LT SEN and is close now. For many, particularly those 50+, the opposite is probably a lot more likely.
At least in this system, the requirements are clear, not some cryptic maybeitworksthisway requirements which may or may not mean that if you had a dead year in your late 50s you can't make LT SEN any more.
the810 and worldclubber like this.
Fabo.sk is offline  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 7:08 am
  #63  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,598
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
At least in this system, the requirements are clear, not some cryptic maybeitworksthisway requirements which may or may not mean that if you had a dead year in your late 50s you can't make LT SEN any more.
That's true. But then again the other system was pretty reliable, too, and for those who moved (back( to LH later in life, the change can mean (theoretically) reaching LT SEN at 75 instead of 60.
worldclubber is online now  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 7:28 am
  #64  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: VIE
Programs: SAS EBS / *A Silver, Hilton Diamond, Radisson VIP, IHG Platinum
Posts: 3,725
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
2. J. Which... let's be honest. For the price paid? Rarely worth the extra expense by any objective measure, if you have an LCC alternative available.
There are some J products which are worth the extra. BA often costs 80 or so extra one-way over an economy fare with a checked bag. If you're not OWS or higher, the value is definitely there. But this is not applicable to LHG with their miserable J product at ridiculous prices.
chris63 and sw1x like this.

Last edited by the810; Apr 2, 2024 at 9:38 am
the810 is online now  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 12:53 pm
  #65  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: NYC/DC
Programs: AA,SPG, Delta, Amtrak, JB
Posts: 830
Originally Posted by hugolover
How about family, friends, colleagues? I cant believe it even needs to be said. Its so basic.
You say that as if they are entitled to such services. The only ones who should be so entitled are those who pay.

Further, how about pax travelling in Y, who use sites like this one and others, to guest them into lounges even though they are in no way related.
FlyerLX likes this.
AJNEDC is offline  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 1:10 pm
  #66  
 
Join Date: Oct 2023
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
Legacy airlines today only have these points to compete with:

1a. Network. They can offer a connection in short/mid haul where p2p is not feasible.
1b. Network. They can offer a connection in long haul.
Personally I always consider but rarely use LLCs as most of the time their schedules do not meet my needs, whether its work or holiday.
Spending an extra night at the hotel, using a less connected airport, breaking a day in half or having a sleepless night, risking missed connection or having to re-checkin baggage while connecting - it is all about ones time, convenience and extra costs hidden behind seemingly low price of the ticket.
I tend to go LLCs mostly if I really need to get somewhere last minute and the alternatives are non-existent or much worse.
curt and GalaxyChris like this.

Last edited by pptskyy; Apr 2, 2024 at 1:19 pm
pptskyy is offline  
Old Apr 2, 2024, 3:17 pm
  #67  
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Posts: 114
Single biggest SEN perk for me has been using the LX SEN line. I book complicated multi city bookings to weird places and without the SEN line this would never be as smooth as it is now (rebooking, irrops, refunds, getting a specific booking class, etc). If I lose SEN, the LX F team is definitely an incentive for me to buy F instead of SEN-less C.

SEN waitlist for award flights has also been quite useful, despite having to fly LH for it to work.
lxfc is offline  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 2:02 am
  #68  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,598
Originally Posted by AJNEDC
You say that as if they are entitled to such services. The only ones who should be so entitled are those who pay.

Further, how about pax travelling in Y, who use sites like this one and others, to guest them into lounges even though they are in no way related.
The pax who can guest has earned this perk by paying a lot and achieving SEN. Simple as that.

According to the absurd logic of some here, any SEN benefit could be scrapped and SEN would be completely worthless.
chris63, more4less, the810 and 1 others like this.
worldclubber is online now  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 2:03 am
  #69  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 77
Great discussion, here is my "low level" addition to it. The SEN perks I've used in the last 2 years:

1) Companion award 50% reduction of miles in two roundtrips so far
2) Usage of lounges during one Economy class roundtrip
3) Choosing better seats in one Economy class roundtrip
4) Used a lounge once in USA when their "first class" didn't have access, but *G had
5) Used 2 vouchers to upgrade from J to F on Swiss (tried once, got it and managed to get a confirmed F in the same call on a SEN hotline)
6) Used priority boarding for me and my wife during one Economy class roundtrip

Overall, if I get SEN with my normal flights it is OK, but I wouldn't go to some extra things (like booking flights I don't need or something else for accruing status miles) just to get it.
jochen_vdk and more4less like this.
BKft is online now  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 6:00 am
  #70  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 764
This discussion is perhaps part of a bigger question: What is LH these days? Their strategy in recent years seems to be All things to all people So at one end, they aim to be like a p2p LCC which picks you up in A, puts you down in B, and charges you X for a small cup of juice en route. At the other end, they still claim to be premium, with attractions like Allegris, lounge refurbs, Heimat, and- as discussed here- interesting perks for status pax.

My own hunch was that they would drop the premium end at least a bit- maybe scrapping F and closing FCT, perhaps leaving that very high premium end to just LX, perhaps scrapping the differentiation between C and SEN lounges to even out capacity, and moving more towards a mass premium model like what TK seem to be planning. But LH seems determined not to do that.

The problem is that they just cant deliver at the premium end Repeated trip reports of F and FCT say its a shadow of what it was, and cont C (from my recent and quite extensive experience) is just inconsistent- very variable service on board, catering sometimes OK, sometimes good but rarely excellent and often awful, and lounges not just full, but full to the point of being a joke.

It may sound obvious, but if an airline tells someone Youre a premium pax, through SEN status or a C or F ticket or whatever, then that person has got to feel at the end of their journey that their experience overall was worth the money. Of course, theres an element of personal taste and opinion, and of course everyone would always like more of what they find important. Pax expecting a five course lunch on FRA-MUC are always likely to be disappointed. But overall, an airline selling premium has got to deliver premium. At the moment LH is not doing that- hence the discussion here on whether SEN is even worth it.

Maybe LHG can define its model better. With the scale they now have (to include AZ soon as well??) I always found it unlikely that they can maintain consistent premium service across all hubs and stations. Maybe its just too complex to be consistent. Id love to be proved wrong and see great premium service emerge Otherwise, my dollars will go elsewhere when Im looking for premium travel. And with, as we are told, increasing numbers of self-funding leisure travelers and decreasing numbers of classic business travelers who may be tied to LHG and to booking certain routes at short notice, my suspicion is that LH has more of a problem on its hands than it thinks
mag, chris63, more4less and 6 others like this.
FlyerLX is offline  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 10:48 am
  #71  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: LAX, LJU
Programs: LH SEN, UA PremSilver
Posts: 229
Originally Posted by FlyerLX
With the scale they now have (to include AZ soon as well??) I always found it unlikely that they can maintain consistent premium service across all hubs and stations.
They can't even maintain the premium experience right at FRA, their main hub. For example, a recent experience of mine went something like this:

[LH Cityline flight lands at remote stand at FRA]
Me: (Looking at open door while stairs are being positioned, speaking to FA) "I don't see the car. Is it here yet?"

FA: (Holding iPad, slowly scrolling manifest) "Car? You are only a Senator, no? You don't get a car. Cars are for HON."

Me: "Only a Senator, yes, but I'm on a First Class ticket, connecting to a First Class flight today."

FA: (Looks perplexed and starts scrolling on the iPad again) "No...hmm...no...I see that you are only a Senator."

Me: "I do this fairly often, and every time there has been a car."

FA: (Shakes head slowly as if to say "no" again and looks very confused.)

[At that moment the car pulls up.]

Me: "I see the car now"

FA: "Oh! It must be for you."

This conversation took place in February. The FA was wearing a LH uniform on a LH branded plane, and we were at FRA. I'm not sure what annoyed me more...that the FA was so uninformed about premium services or that she gave the distinct impression that SEN was a lowly status.

On the flip side, I have had good experiences too.
MichielR, the810, FlyerLX and 2 others like this.
Fennario is offline  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 1:30 pm
  #72  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 764
Originally Posted by Fennario
Me: (Looking at open door while stairs are being positioned, speaking to FA) "I don't see the car. Is it here yet?"

FA: (Holding iPad, slowly scrolling manifest) "Car? You are only a Senator, no? You don't get a car. Cars are for HON."

Me: "Only a Senator, yes, but I'm on a First Class ticket, connecting to a First Class flight today."

FA: (Looks perplexed and starts scrolling on the iPad again) "No...hmm...no...I see that you are only a Senator."

Me: "I do this fairly often, and every time there has been a car."

FA: (Shakes head slowly as if to say "no" again and looks very confused.)

[At that moment the car pulls up.]

Me: "I see the car now"

FA: "Oh! It must be for you."

. I'm not sure what annoyed me more...that the FA was so uninformed about premium services or that she gave the distinct impression that SEN was a lowly status.
Not at all surprising on LH mainline- are there a lot of ex-Air Berlin or ex-Wingsthing who dont really know the system, perhaps??

Surprises me more on Cityline- I mostly get pretty senior, experienced FAs there In fact on a recent short hop on a Canadair thing, the two of them were incredibly efficient and did the whole flight in perfect co-ordination while hardly needing to exchange a word with each other. Totally professional. I made a point of saying thank you to both and wishing them a smooth and uneventful return flt😊
DownUnderFlyer and Fennario like this.
FlyerLX is offline  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 1:38 pm
  #73  
Moderator: Asiana & Qantas Frequent Flyer
Aman Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: STR/SYD/SMF
Programs: QF Lifetime SG, LH HON, OZ Lifetime Diamond +, HH Diamond, Marriott Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 14,365
Originally Posted by worldclubber
Really, how that! Sounds like a rare case.
IIRC the old lifetime status was very much limited by your own lifetime. You needed to be at least 60 years of age among other things. With the new system I will reach lifetime SEN way, way earlier than me turning 60.
FlyerLX and worldclubber like this.
DownUnderFlyer is offline  
Old Apr 3, 2024, 1:53 pm
  #74  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Star Alliance Gold, Oneworld Silver
Posts: 764
Originally Posted by DownUnderFlyer
IIRC the old lifetime status was very much limited by your own lifetime. You needed to be at least 60 years of age among other things. With the new system I will reach lifetime SEN way, way earlier than me turning 60.
And- much discussed here- AFAIK it was never a published policy.
DownUnderFlyer likes this.
FlyerLX is offline  
Old Apr 4, 2024, 9:18 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Programs: LH M&M, BA EC, DL SM
Posts: 5,598
Originally Posted by DownUnderFlyer
IIRC the old lifetime status was very much limited by your own lifetime. You needed to be at least 60 years of age among other things. With the new system I will reach lifetime SEN way, way earlier than me turning 60.
It doesn't seem to happen a lot, but I am glad that you are among the lucky ones.
worldclubber is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.