Nov 12, 2019, 6:52 am
Last edit by: ACflyerDE
The programme will now change from 1 January 2022 (postponed again and it will not start before 2023)
https://www.miles-and-more.com/row/e...ts/update.html
All the changes are listed on the official M&M Website: https://www.miles-and-more.com/de/en...ts/update.html
Starting 2021, the system for earning status changes. From then on, status points are earned by cabin and segment flown:
Regional flights will earn 5 points in Economy and Premium Economy, 10 points in First and Business class per segment
Intercontinental flights, ie flights between two IATA regions, will earn 15 points in Economy, 20 in Premium Economy, 50 in Business and 70 in First class segments
There will be two kinds of points : qualifying points (QP): earned with M&M integrated partners (LH/EW/LX/OS/LO/OU/LG/etc) and normal points : earned with other partners like the airlines in the Star Alliance. QP can be earned on LH Airrail train segments, but are capped at 40/120/250 per year for FTL/SEN/HON.
'Frequent Traveler' (FTL, equivalent to *S) status is given to members with 160 points (of which atleast 80 need to be QP), 'Senator' (SEN, *G) to members with 480 points (of which atleast 240 need to be QP). HON Circle (HON) is awarded after reaching 1500 QP in one year.
SEN will receive two evouchers upon qualification each year, HON 4 evouchers. There will be no rollover of QP, but for members who exceed the qualification QP level, M&M will grant the following benefits:
FTL: Mileage exchange for QP at 200 qualifying points
SEN: 2 eVoucher at 700 qualifying points; 15,000 award miles at 1,000 qualifying points; Frequent Traveller partner card at 1,300 qualifying points
HON:2 eVoucher at 1,800 qualifying points; 30,000 award miles at 2,100 qualifying points; 2 eVoucher at 2,400 qualifying points; Frequent Traveller partner card at 2,700 qualifying points; Senator partner card at 3,000 qualifying points
The system of status miles, HON Circle miles, select miles, and status star points will be abolished at the end of 2020. Any status earned prior to that will be honored. Any HON Circle miles earned in 2020 will be credited as QP in the ratio 200:1. Status star points earned till end of 2020 will converted to lifetime QP at a ration of 2:1.
Members with a lifetime QP of 7500 will be awarded FTL for their lifetime. If members reach 10000 lifetime QP and have been SEN for at least a cumulative 10 years they will be awarded lifetime SEN status.
Status is always valid for the year of qualification and one additional year. HON and SEN will have a 'soft landing' ie if they cannot requalify for status, they will get a year of SEN or FTL respectively.
https://www.miles-and-more.com/row/e...ts/update.html
All the changes are listed on the official M&M Website: https://www.miles-and-more.com/de/en...ts/update.html
Starting 2021, the system for earning status changes. From then on, status points are earned by cabin and segment flown:
Regional flights will earn 5 points in Economy and Premium Economy, 10 points in First and Business class per segment
Intercontinental flights, ie flights between two IATA regions, will earn 15 points in Economy, 20 in Premium Economy, 50 in Business and 70 in First class segments
There will be two kinds of points : qualifying points (QP): earned with M&M integrated partners (LH/EW/LX/OS/LO/OU/LG/etc) and normal points : earned with other partners like the airlines in the Star Alliance. QP can be earned on LH Airrail train segments, but are capped at 40/120/250 per year for FTL/SEN/HON.
'Frequent Traveler' (FTL, equivalent to *S) status is given to members with 160 points (of which atleast 80 need to be QP), 'Senator' (SEN, *G) to members with 480 points (of which atleast 240 need to be QP). HON Circle (HON) is awarded after reaching 1500 QP in one year.
SEN will receive two evouchers upon qualification each year, HON 4 evouchers. There will be no rollover of QP, but for members who exceed the qualification QP level, M&M will grant the following benefits:
FTL: Mileage exchange for QP at 200 qualifying points
SEN: 2 eVoucher at 700 qualifying points; 15,000 award miles at 1,000 qualifying points; Frequent Traveller partner card at 1,300 qualifying points
HON:2 eVoucher at 1,800 qualifying points; 30,000 award miles at 2,100 qualifying points; 2 eVoucher at 2,400 qualifying points; Frequent Traveller partner card at 2,700 qualifying points; Senator partner card at 3,000 qualifying points
The system of status miles, HON Circle miles, select miles, and status star points will be abolished at the end of 2020. Any status earned prior to that will be honored. Any HON Circle miles earned in 2020 will be credited as QP in the ratio 200:1. Status star points earned till end of 2020 will converted to lifetime QP at a ration of 2:1.
Members with a lifetime QP of 7500 will be awarded FTL for their lifetime. If members reach 10000 lifetime QP and have been SEN for at least a cumulative 10 years they will be awarded lifetime SEN status.
Status is always valid for the year of qualification and one additional year. HON and SEN will have a 'soft landing' ie if they cannot requalify for status, they will get a year of SEN or FTL respectively.
New qualifying points system for status from 2024
Nov 13, 2019, 1:35 am
#376
Join Date: Sep 2007
Programs: Lufthansa Gold, SQ Gold, Hilton Gold, MarriottPlat
Posts: 33
So flying in Y on SQ from Singapore to Japan would only earn me 5 (non-qualifying) points?
Nov 13, 2019, 1:36 am
#377
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 569
But thbe's post is not interesting but simply demonstrates thbe isn't familiar with Loyalty 101.
It is not the goal of a loyalty program to reward the most profitable customers. Instead, the goal is to generate incremental business.
Many hub-captive business execs in FRA, MUC, and ZRH must fly LH group. Their time is to valuable to have constant layovers in LHR, MAD, AMS, or CDG. No need to incentivize those guys, they're buying expensive LH group tickets either way.
Instead, you want to incentivize those people to stick to LH group which have the option to go elsewhere. That is, those guys for who might as well elect to fly OW, ST, or *A carriers not fully integrated into M&M.
Nov 13, 2019, 1:37 am
#378
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
True. But there are some that now only (re)qualify because Y flights count as well towards HON. I am one of those. I ran my XLS sheet and whilst there were years where only on J and F flights I had >2,500 QPs, there are other years where without the Y flights I would not have requalified. I did, because the J and F flights that I did were accounted for by the distance method, but now that they change to points, only J and F would have left me short. Hence, as the move from distance miles to QPs goes along with counting Y flights, I am fine.
Nov 13, 2019, 1:43 am
#379
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,481
One segment FRA-SFO in F gives the same amount of points as 14 segments Eco light within Germany. And more important than the probably lower turnover of the Eco flights are the costs. 1 flight with HON service included versus 14 flights without a significant margin and with a huge loss after accounting >USD 150 for every FCT visit.
Beside of that it doesn’t make sense to discuss about that topic on that base. You take the 45 trips Y Eco long haul guests as an example. I take the 150+ short haul K Eco guests as an example. What do you think, how many customers out there are corresponding with your example and how many customers out there are corresponding to my example? Will you find my example 50 times more often? 100 times? 200 times? 500? At least 500 times! More likely 1000 times. There are so many many commuters within Europe on integrated M&M metal, who get FTL by segments only, who will get SEN soon and who have a third or half way to HON already. So what is the relevance of your example?
Nov 13, 2019, 2:01 am
#380
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,481
Many hub-captive business execs in FRA, MUC, and ZRH must fly LH group. Their time is to valuable to have constant layovers in LHR, MAD, AMS, or CDG. No need to incentivize those guys, they're buying expensive LH group tickets either way.
Instead, you want to incentivize those people to stick to LH group which have the option to go elsewhere. That is, those guys for who might as well elect to fly OW, ST, or *A carriers not fully integrated into M&M.
Instead, you want to incentivize those people to stick to LH group which have the option to go elsewhere. That is, those guys for who might as well elect to fly OW, ST, or *A carriers not fully integrated into M&M.
And your second point is, that F and C guests try to avoid adding 3 hours to a 10h flights at all costs, but Eco light guests don't mind flying 4 hours instead of 1 and paying much more money for that?
Well, that is not common business sense, but that doesn't have to mean for sure, that it is wrong.
Nov 13, 2019, 2:16 am
#381
Moderator: Asiana & Qantas Frequent Flyer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: STR/SYD/SMF
Programs: QF Lifetime SG, LH HON, OZ Lifetime Diamond +, HH Diamond, Marriott Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 14,375
Will you find my example 50 times more often? 100 times? 200 times? 500? At least 500 times! More likely 1000 times. There are so many many commuters within Europe on integrated M&M metal, who get FTL by segments only, who will get SEN soon and who have a third or half way to HON already. So what is the relevance of your example?
I personally know a lot of people who have moved their MUC/FRA-TXL Business to Easyjet. I am doing a fair share on U2 on those routes myself. But if I fly long haul from MUC I will very often take LH even if the price is a bit more.
Nov 13, 2019, 2:30 am
#382
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,481
BTW: What do you think, how many of M&M customers are living close to LH‘s long haul hubs and how many needs a connecting flight anyway?
Nov 13, 2019, 3:02 am
#383
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 569
There are highly profitable customers that are easy to retain. Among them are business executives, entrepreneurs, and high net worth individuals who are located in a major M&M hub and who simply cannot be bothered to use alternatives to LH group for most of their flying.
Then there are flyers which are still profitable, but less so than the guys in the previous group, that are harder to retain. The reason they are harder to retain because they have less spending power and their time is less valuable (which implies that for them substitute goods are more readily available).
In a world with such two groups (or, more generally, a world with customers on a continuum between those two polar cases), you wouldn't treat every customer proportionally to the profits she generates. Instead, you would target customers in the first group disproportionally small and customers in the second group disproportionally large. The guy who flys LH no matter needs not to be given a potato salad, the guy who flys only if he gets the potato salad should be given it.
I believe this is a pretty fundamental idea to understand if one wants to make sense of loyalty programs.
Obviously, the issue for the program is that it doesn't know how attached a customer is to the product. So it must set up some simple rules which work as intended in most cases but not all.
The fact that program rules aren't individualized to a high degree is something we as flyers can exploit. But again, if we don't understand concepts such as the one above, we cannot make sense of loyalty programs. And in that, one can bring the program one's most attached to emotionally. It wouldn't leave much room for an intelligent discussion on FT, though.
tl;dr You, thbe, suggested in a previous post that loyalty should reward based on the profitability of a customer. That is wrong. You don't want to reward customers for being profitable per se. Instead, you want to reward customers if the reward/loyalty you provide them with generates additional profitable business. (Obviously, under the constraint that setting the incentive costs less than the additional business it brings in.)
Last edited by FlyerTalker324193; Nov 13, 2019 at 3:14 am
Nov 13, 2019, 3:57 am
#384
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,656
Just wanted to make sure I understand the HON qualification for 2020 and 2021.
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Let's say that in 2020, I travel exactly 100,000 miles with LH Group airlines. I would re-qualify for SEN. That would convert to 500 QPs.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Option 2:
We will, of course, recognise the HON Circle miles you flew in 2020 and will convert them into qualifying points. This amount will then be added to the qualifying points you earn in 2021. If you reach a total of 3,000 qualifying points, you will obtain HON Circle Member status for two years up until February 2024.
We will, of course, recognise the HON Circle miles you flew in 2020 and will convert them into qualifying points. This amount will then be added to the qualifying points you earn in 2021. If you reach a total of 3,000 qualifying points, you will obtain HON Circle Member status for two years up until February 2024.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
Nov 13, 2019, 4:17 am
#385
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: MM, EK, HH, etc.
Posts: 381
No, that is not what I wrote. I gave an illustrative example to make the following point.
There are highly profitable customers that are easy to retain. Among them are business executives, entrepreneurs, and high net worth individuals who are located in a major M&M hub and who simply cannot be bothered to use alternatives to LH group for most of their flying.
Then there are flyers which are still profitable, but less so than the guys in the previous group, that are harder to retain. The reason they are harder to retain because they have less spending power and their time is less valuable (which implies that for them substitute goods are more readily available).
In a world with such two groups (or, more generally, a world with customers on a continuum between those two polar cases), you wouldn't treat every customer proportionally to the profits she generates. Instead, you would target customers in the first group disproportionally small and customers in the second group disproportionally large. The guy who flys LH no matter needs not to be given a potato salad, the guy who flys only if he gets the potato salad should be given it.
I believe this is a pretty fundamental idea to understand if one wants to make sense of loyalty programs.
Obviously, the issue for the program is that it doesn't know how attached a customer is to the product. So it must set up some simple rules which work as intended in most cases but not all.
The fact that program rules aren't individualized to a high degree is something we as flyers can exploit. But again, if we don't understand concepts such as the one above, we cannot make sense of loyalty programs. And in that, one can bring the program one's most attached to emotionally. It wouldn't leave much room for an intelligent discussion on FT, though.
tl;dr You, thbe, suggested in a previous post that loyalty should reward based on the profitability of a customer. That is wrong. You don't want to reward customers for being profitable per se. Instead, you want to reward customers if the reward/loyalty you provide them with generates additional profitable business. (Obviously, under the constraint that setting the incentive costs less than the additional business it brings in.)
There are highly profitable customers that are easy to retain. Among them are business executives, entrepreneurs, and high net worth individuals who are located in a major M&M hub and who simply cannot be bothered to use alternatives to LH group for most of their flying.
Then there are flyers which are still profitable, but less so than the guys in the previous group, that are harder to retain. The reason they are harder to retain because they have less spending power and their time is less valuable (which implies that for them substitute goods are more readily available).
In a world with such two groups (or, more generally, a world with customers on a continuum between those two polar cases), you wouldn't treat every customer proportionally to the profits she generates. Instead, you would target customers in the first group disproportionally small and customers in the second group disproportionally large. The guy who flys LH no matter needs not to be given a potato salad, the guy who flys only if he gets the potato salad should be given it.
I believe this is a pretty fundamental idea to understand if one wants to make sense of loyalty programs.
Obviously, the issue for the program is that it doesn't know how attached a customer is to the product. So it must set up some simple rules which work as intended in most cases but not all.
The fact that program rules aren't individualized to a high degree is something we as flyers can exploit. But again, if we don't understand concepts such as the one above, we cannot make sense of loyalty programs. And in that, one can bring the program one's most attached to emotionally. It wouldn't leave much room for an intelligent discussion on FT, though.
tl;dr You, thbe, suggested in a previous post that loyalty should reward based on the profitability of a customer. That is wrong. You don't want to reward customers for being profitable per se. Instead, you want to reward customers if the reward/loyalty you provide them with generates additional profitable business. (Obviously, under the constraint that setting the incentive costs less than the additional business it brings in.)
Nov 13, 2019, 4:20 am
#386
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ORD
Programs: BA, AA, SQ, UA, AC, WS, MR TIT
Posts: 8,659
Nov 13, 2019, 4:32 am
#387
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: BRU
Programs: LH (SEN), IHG (Plat Amb)
Posts: 498
Just wanted to make sure I understand the HON qualification for 2020 and 2021.
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Let's say that in 2020, I travel exactly 100,000 miles with LH Group airlines. I would re-qualify for SEN. That would convert to 500 QPs.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Let's say that in 2020, I travel exactly 100,000 miles with LH Group airlines. I would re-qualify for SEN. That would convert to 500 QPs.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
If you fly those 100,000 status miles in Y, you won't get HON circle miles.
Nov 13, 2019, 4:47 am
#388
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Madrid
Programs: IB+ Emerald (Platino), M&M Senator (Gold), Meliá Rewards Platino, NH Platinum
Posts: 436
Just wanted to make sure I understand the HON qualification for 2020 and 2021.
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Let's say that in 2020, I travel exactly 100,000 miles with LH Group airlines. I would re-qualify for SEN. That would convert to 500 QPs.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
Currently I'm a SEN. On the info page they have two options:
Let's say that in 2020, I travel exactly 100,000 miles with LH Group airlines. I would re-qualify for SEN. That would convert to 500 QPs.
In 2021, let's say that I earned 2500 QPs. That would then be a total of 3,000 across the two years.
That would mean that I would have fulfilled "Option 2" and would have HON status for two years until Feb 2024?
Nov 13, 2019, 4:52 am
#389
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bergen - Norway
Programs: EBD , FBG
Posts: 563
Wouldn't it be nice if you could substantiate your claims just a little bit?
Back in the days, when the Y-warrior travelled in B class, FRA-JFK return got him 13,489 HON-miles for each return trip. After 45 tiring trips, the poor fellow was a HON Circle.
Lufthansa decided that people flying in B class are not worth it and made HON Circle exclusive to people flying in J or F.
While the Y-warrior could stretch out his 45 flights over 24 months, he is now forced to do 50 flights in just 12 months every single year.
I don't see how that is a) easy or b) turning to unprofitable customers.
Even a customer flying K class has to hand over 25,000 USD (assuming a round trip price of 500 USD) - every single year and endure 50 Y-flights within 12 months.
The total number of HON Circle qualifying with Y flights will be less than 10.
Back in the days, when the Y-warrior travelled in B class, FRA-JFK return got him 13,489 HON-miles for each return trip. After 45 tiring trips, the poor fellow was a HON Circle.
Lufthansa decided that people flying in B class are not worth it and made HON Circle exclusive to people flying in J or F.
While the Y-warrior could stretch out his 45 flights over 24 months, he is now forced to do 50 flights in just 12 months every single year.
I don't see how that is a) easy or b) turning to unprofitable customers.
Even a customer flying K class has to hand over 25,000 USD (assuming a round trip price of 500 USD) - every single year and endure 50 Y-flights within 12 months.
The total number of HON Circle qualifying with Y flights will be less than 10.
Nov 13, 2019, 4:55 am
#390
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,656
What is the transitional arrangement for HON Circle Members?
Special rules will apply to qualifications or renewals of HON Circle Member status in the transitional period between the old and the new system.
Qualification and requalification years 2019 and 2020 (existing HON Circle Members with a term to February 2021):
You will achieve or renew your status with 600,000 HON Circle miles as usual within the two calendar years up until 31 December 2020 and will obtain a term of two years until the end of February 2023.
Qualification and requalification years 2020 and 2021 (existing HON Circle Members with a term to February 2022):
You will earn HON Circle miles as usual in 2020. From 1 January 2021, you will be credited with points and qualifying points for your flights. HON Circle miles will then no longer exist.
There will now be two options:
Option 1:
In the calendar year 2021, you will earn at least 1,500 qualifying points and thus obtain HON Circle status until February 2023.
Option 2:
We will, of course, recognise the HON Circle miles you flew in 2020 and will convert them into qualifying points. This amount will then be added to the qualifying points you earn in 2021. If you reach a total of 3,000 qualifying points, you will obtain HON Circle Member status for two years up until February 2024.
Conversion factor: 200 HON Circle miles will be equivalent to one qualifying point. 300,000 HON Circle miles will thus be equivalent to 1,500 qualifying points.
Special rules will apply to qualifications or renewals of HON Circle Member status in the transitional period between the old and the new system.
Qualification and requalification years 2019 and 2020 (existing HON Circle Members with a term to February 2021):
You will achieve or renew your status with 600,000 HON Circle miles as usual within the two calendar years up until 31 December 2020 and will obtain a term of two years until the end of February 2023.
Qualification and requalification years 2020 and 2021 (existing HON Circle Members with a term to February 2022):
You will earn HON Circle miles as usual in 2020. From 1 January 2021, you will be credited with points and qualifying points for your flights. HON Circle miles will then no longer exist.
There will now be two options:
Option 1:
In the calendar year 2021, you will earn at least 1,500 qualifying points and thus obtain HON Circle status until February 2023.
Option 2:
We will, of course, recognise the HON Circle miles you flew in 2020 and will convert them into qualifying points. This amount will then be added to the qualifying points you earn in 2021. If you reach a total of 3,000 qualifying points, you will obtain HON Circle Member status for two years up until February 2024.
Conversion factor: 200 HON Circle miles will be equivalent to one qualifying point. 300,000 HON Circle miles will thus be equivalent to 1,500 qualifying points.