LH using Timatic database at FRA
Feb 6, 2017, 5:29 am
#1
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LH using Timatic database at FRA
Traveling will become increasingly difficult again (Brexit, Trump ....) and Timatic will be an even more important tool (for those not put off by traveling altogether).
LCC are known for turning away customers on vague arguments, but could one expect with LH group airlines that what is stated in Timatic is strictly applied and one can count on that ? Anybody had problems in delicate cases where conditions can differentiated with country of residence and family status ? Perhaps could our dear oliver2002 enlighten us about his experiences with the practice
.
From my experience in ZRH the LX contracted staff are rather good and proactive in finding the right rule, which can not be said of the many poorly trained "Kantonspolizei" border officers
, who can make entering the Schengen space a pain.
LCC are known for turning away customers on vague arguments, but could one expect with LH group airlines that what is stated in Timatic is strictly applied and one can count on that ? Anybody had problems in delicate cases where conditions can differentiated with country of residence and family status ? Perhaps could our dear oliver2002 enlighten us about his experiences with the practice
.From my experience in ZRH the LX contracted staff are rather good and proactive in finding the right rule, which can not be said of the many poorly trained "Kantonspolizei" border officers
, who can make entering the Schengen space a pain.
Feb 6, 2017, 8:24 am
#2
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Timatic is there exactly for that purpose, why would airlines invent additional rules?
Timatic has a clear annotation regarding the suspension of the ban:
Timatic has a clear annotation regarding the suspension of the ban:
Code:
>TIRV/NADAM/ARBER/EMFRA/DEWAS
TIMATIC-3 / 06FEB17 / 1523 UTC
NATIONAL SYRIA (SY) /RESIDENCE GERMANY (DE)
EMBARKATION GERMANY (DE) /DESTINATION USA (US)
VISA DESTINATION USA (US)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID FOR A MINIMUM OF 6 MONTHS BEYOND THE PERIOD OF
>MDTI
>m
INTENDED STAY.
PASSPORT EXEMPTIONS:
- PASSENGERS WITH AN AUTHORIZATION FOR PAROLE OF AN ALIEN INTO
THE UNITED STATES (FORM I-512).
- PASSENGERS WITH A TEMPORARY OR EMERGENCY PASSPORT.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR PASSENGERS WITH AN AUTHORIZATION FOR
PAROLE OF AN ALIEN INTO THE UNITED STATES (FORM I-512).
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- A PASSENGER MAY ENTER THE USA WITH A VALID VISA IN AN
>MDTI
>m
EXPIRED PASSPORT, PROVIDED >TIDFT/US/VI/AI/ID42974
- VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD PROOF OF SUFFICIENT FUNDS TO
COVER THEIR STAY AND DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR NEXT
DESTINATION.
- BEGINNING STUDENTS HOLDING "F", "J" OR "M" STUDENT/EXCHANGE
VISITOR VISAS >TIDFT/US/VI/AI/ID49644
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - USA: EXECUTIVE ORDER IS SUSPENDED.
>MDTI
>m
SCAN COMPLETE
>
>TINEWS/N1
TIMATIC-3 / 06FEB17 / 1523 UTC
CURRENT NEWS (N1)
USA: EXECUTIVE ORDER IS SUSPENDED.
THE EXECUTIVE ORDER ESTABLISHING ENTRY RESTRICTIONS IN THE USA
FOR PASSENGERS WITH A PASSPORT ISSUED BY IRAN, IRAQ, LIBYA,
SOMALIA, SUDAN, SYRIA OR YEMEN HAS BEEN SUSPENDED ON 3
FEBRUARY 2017.
TEXT DISPLAY COMPLETE
>
>
Feb 6, 2017, 11:11 am
#3
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Feb 6, 2017, 4:57 pm
#4
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LCC are known for turning away customers on vague arguments, but could one expect with LH group airlines that what is stated in Timatic is strictly applied and one can count on that ? Anybody had problems in delicate cases where conditions can differentiated with country of residence and family status ? Perhaps could our dear oliver2002 enlighten us about his experiences with the practice .
.
Feb 6, 2017, 5:34 pm
#5
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Kantonspolizei (=state police) is not using Timatic, AFAIK. They have their own system. Now while I agree that many are not proficient in English, I have no indication they would not know immigration rules ...
Feb 6, 2017, 6:21 pm
#6
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The importance of Timatic upon (not) boarding a plane is to determine if it is IDB or compensation. My point would be it being IDB when Timatic rules are fulfilled. I am correct?
Feb 6, 2017, 7:57 pm
#7
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That is the argument.
A carrier would argue that it has reasonably denied boarding under EC 261/2004 if it has relied on TIMATIC which is simply a database containing statutes, rules, and regulations supplied by governments around the world to IATA and then cataloged by IATA into a searchable form.
The issue will always be what is "reasonable" under the circumstances and while people on FT love to argue, I would be interested in actual precedential court decisions finding that reliance on TIMATIC is not reasonable.
A carrier would argue that it has reasonably denied boarding under EC 261/2004 if it has relied on TIMATIC which is simply a database containing statutes, rules, and regulations supplied by governments around the world to IATA and then cataloged by IATA into a searchable form.
The issue will always be what is "reasonable" under the circumstances and while people on FT love to argue, I would be interested in actual precedential court decisions finding that reliance on TIMATIC is not reasonable.
Feb 6, 2017, 11:53 pm
#8
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Lufthansa outstation can call a Bundespolizei Hotline in FRA if/when they have any doubt interpreting the timatic guidelines (and the passenger is rather pesky about the denied boarding). The BuPo takes a look at the documents, the PNR and then gives a preliminary ok or denial. This information is then entered into the PNR for records. But for that you need time. So if you show for checkin 2h before departure you may have a chance before they close the flight, 60-70min before you will most certainly not make it.
Feb 7, 2017, 3:05 am
#9
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. Shows that LH has procedures in place to treat its customers correctly.My case was leaving FRA to the UK, which with all those Brexit stories becomes an unpleasant place. Theoretically EU rules still apply to the UK and Timatic reflects this in the case of EU residence permits of EU family members.. But it was a pain in the ... in 2015 and 2016 already. The UK border is among the most unpleasant
one can imagine - have not been to the US since 2002 and won't return anytime soon.
Feb 20, 2020, 6:10 am
#10
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Theoretically EU rules still apply to the UK and Timatic reflects this in the case of EU residence permits of EU family members.. But it was a pain in the ... in 2015 and 2016 already
Feb 20, 2020, 6:00 pm
#11
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That is the argument.
A carrier would argue that it has reasonably denied boarding under EC 261/2004 if it has relied on TIMATIC which is simply a database containing statutes, rules, and regulations supplied by governments around the world to IATA and then cataloged by IATA into a searchable form.
The issue will always be what is "reasonable" under the circumstances and while people on FT love to argue, I would be interested in actual precedential court decisions finding that reliance on TIMATIC is not reasonable.
A carrier would argue that it has reasonably denied boarding under EC 261/2004 if it has relied on TIMATIC which is simply a database containing statutes, rules, and regulations supplied by governments around the world to IATA and then cataloged by IATA into a searchable form.
The issue will always be what is "reasonable" under the circumstances and while people on FT love to argue, I would be interested in actual precedential court decisions finding that reliance on TIMATIC is not reasonable.
Feb 20, 2020, 11:00 pm
#12
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At least in theory !
Given the headache this rule caused, from IDB, lost slots, delays to long discussions with ECO's, I am happy that the UK finally goes its own way. Got a 10 years UK visa for my spouse which costed me GBP 822 (this is not a joke) ! A sensible thing would be to boycott such a country if not for compelling reasons.
source: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...residence-card
Last edited by behuman; Feb 20, 2020 at 11:05 pm
Feb 21, 2020, 2:02 am
#13
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As stated in the parallel thread -> If the Home Office issued a letter to Lufthansa / Timatic that all Non-EU citizen (without a visa waiver agreement) require to have an UK Entry Clearance document or UK-issued Residence Card, then that's it. LH is forced to deny boarding for pax without it. Pax may take it up with the UK Government - not LH.
I mean, do you think airlines are denying pax just out-of-fun? Do you think at Timatic only a bunch of idiots are working for?
I mean, do you think airlines are denying pax just out-of-fun? Do you think at Timatic only a bunch of idiots are working for?
Feb 21, 2020, 2:05 am
#14
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I am afraid you are only partially right dear warakorn, if the EU residence card is the one of a EU family member, this entitles him/her to enter the UK, the EEA family permit is optional in this case. The ECO after verification will then affix a 1A stamp in the passport of the third country national.
At least in theory !
At least in theory !
The airline is just a third party, who should not be involved in that.
Feb 21, 2020, 2:38 am
#15
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TIMATIC means nothing then
? Nothing at all has to be sorted out / litigated in this case, it is LH group contractors doing document checks who in their due diligence should follow TIMATIC rules and in the case of the famous family member residence permit TIMATIC states:"Visa required.
Visa Exemptions:
Family members of a national of an EEA Member State, Switzerland or the United Kingdom, with a "Permanent Residence Card of a Family Member of a Union Citizen" or a "Residence Card of a Family Member of a Union Citizen" issued by Italy. They must travel with or travel to join the Union Citizen.
Passengers with an EEA Family Permit issued by the United Kingdom if the holder is traveling with, or to join the nationals of an EEA Member State, Switzerland or the United Kingdom."
The EEA family permit (which is a pain to be issued) is just an option and of course preferred by overworked ECO's. (Italy as issuing country is just an example as one has to feed this information to TIMATIC)