Mar 24, 2015, 6:09 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES and SUMMARY
WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES and SUMMARY
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk!
Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveller information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travellers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous accident threads, please observe the following general rules in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
7. If you cite what a particular news outlet is reporting, you need to provide a link so that others can examine the source themselves.
8. If you have an issue with a post, please contact a moderator (click on the
button)AND, along with these general rules, the Moderator Team has needed to develop several other specific rules as this thread has developed:
- Please discuss confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
- General discussions of the "culture" of Germanwings -- including attitudes towards sickness -- can now be found on this thread, whose opening post was split off of this one: What is the Germanwings sickness attitude/culture like?
- GENERAL discussion of cockpit security procedures, comparisons to other countries' procedures, specifics regarding other airlines' procedures are off-topic for this thread. Please discuss in this thread in Travel Buzz: Cockpit security and policies on entering the cockpit [follow up 4U incident thread]
- Discussion of the relative veracity/trustworthiness of individual news sources/outlets is outside the scope of this thread.
- Speculative discussions of lawsuits, jurisdiction, other countries' procedures, etc., are also not germane at this point.
- We recognise the FT community comes from all walks of life, aviation experts and those who just enjoy travelling. When posting about aviation terms in this thread please try to spell out these rather than just using the acronym. This will help all of us to understand your post better.
If you or someone you know struggles with mental health issues, please find support information here:FT Cares! Seeking international suicide prevention & crisis intervention listings
4U9525 Moderator team: totti, oliver2002, NewbieRunner, starflyergold, DownUnderFlyer, cblaisd, TWA884
============================================
Germanwings Flight 4U 9525 (Barcelona - Dusseldorf) crashed on 24 March 2015, coming down in the Alps near Barcelonette France
Aircraft involved is Airbus A320 reg D-AIPX. It was delivered to Lufthansa in 1991 and passed to Germanwings in 2001. It received routine maintenance at DUS the day before the crash (performed by Lufthansa Technik) and had its last major overhaul ( C-Check) in the summer of 2013. Lufthansa have said the plane was in 'perfect' condition.
Circumstances
It is very likely that the aircraft was deliberately crashed by the co-pilot Andreas Lubwitz
As per Germanwings press conference held 1400 on 24th March:
The aircraft flew from DUS to BCN on the morning of the crash
The flight left BCN at 1001 local time, it reached crusing altitude of 38000 at 1045 but remained there for only one minute before beginning a descent which lasted 8 minutes and ended in the crash.
ATC permission was not asked for the descent and it is unclear whether or not the crew were in ATC contact and under what circumstances an emergency was declared.
Subsequent reports suggest there was no communication between the crew and ATC after the aircraft began to descend.
The weather was good at the time of the crash:
Surface weather near where they started the descent:
METAR LFTH 240800Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/08 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240830Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/09 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240900Z AUTO 08016KT 9999 FEW035 SCT130 15/08 Q1008
That's basically unrestricted visibility at the surface.
Posted by Captainmiles Post #156 in this thread
US govt sources say no evidence of terrorism (reported on sky news uk)
Germanwings/Lufthansa official response
Germanwings press conference announced for 1500 local time, to be held in Cologne
Press conference reports: Lufthansa group employees enroute to crash site, families of victims being informed, crisis center set up at DUS airport
New flight number have been announced
4U9440 DUS0645 – 0855BCN EQV
4U9441 BCN0935 – 1155DUS EQV
Relatives of victims have been transported to the crash area by Lufthansa
Lufthansa press conference held at 1330 GMT on 26 March stated that the plane was most likely brought down deliberately by the co-pilot.
Video recording of the press conference (26 March):
In German
In English (simultaneous translation)
Victims
Latest reports are 144 passengers and 6 crew aboard, Spanish government report 45 Spanish nationals, French government reports 0 French nationals, German government reports there are some German victims but numbers not known (German wings press conference reports 67), Sky News UK reports Turkish nationals on board. There were 2 babies, one of the belonging to a woman from Manchester and the other is German, the child of opera singer Maria Radner who was travelling on the flight with her husband.
Two of the victims were Australians - a mother and her adult son from Victoria.
Two victims from Argentina
Three from Great Britain
One Israeli
Two Colombians
One Belgian
One Dutch
Two Iranians
Three Americans
Two Japanese
Three Mexicans
The German victims include 16 pupils and 2 teachers from Joseph Koenig Gymnasium (high school) at Haltern Am See, they were returning from an exchange visit to Spain.
Crew comprised 4 cabin crew and 2 flight deck. The captain had been with Lufthansa group for 10 years and had over 6000 hours on this plane type.
The co-pilot is widely reported to have joined Germanwings straight out of training in 2013 and to have had 630 hours of experience.
French rescue services believe there are no survivors.
Emergency contact numbers
From Germany 0800 1133 5577
From Spain 902 400 012
0049 30 5000 3000
The names of the victims will be published once their families have been informed.
Crash site
The crash site has been identified by helicopters, it is not accessible by road and is around 2 and a half hours walk from the nearest road (reported Sky News UK). It is at an altitude of around 2000m. Search and rescue teams are en-route. There may be an avalanche risk which could hamper rescue efforts. Rescuers are assembling at Seyne-Les-Alpes.
Sky news UK are reporting that a helicopter has landed near the crash site. They have confirmed no survivors and have reported the largest piece of debris to be about car sized. The debris field is about 200 square meters in size. See also http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24557269-post183.html
Investigation - confirmed information
Large numbers of French investigators are on site, efforts have been made to secure the site against outside interference.
The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) has been recovered and taken for investigation at French BEA. It is damaged but functional. Voices can be heard on the recording but it is unclear if they are those of the flight crew.
BEA is working in cooperation with German BFU (Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung), Airbus and CFM.
The aircraft was complete until impact - there was no midair breakup
"Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France"
New York Times reports that one of the two pilots was locked out of the cockpit during the descent: “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.” http://nyti.ms/1HC7g9i
French prosecuters believe that the crash was caused by the deliberate actions of the co-pilot, he is thought to have locked the captain out of the cockpit and then to have deliberately crashed the aircraft.
Video of cockpit operation and manual override switch to block door from being opened externally. From The Guardian.
A locked door is opened by a flight crew inside the cockpit but can also be unlocked by cabin crew entering a keycode from the outside. Crew inside the cockpit can manually override it to keep a door locked for up to five minutes.
On 6 May 2015, the BEA released its preliminary report.
Reliable Sources
AV Herald page on the crash.
FlightRadar24 flight path map
flightware tracking log
BBC News "What we know so far"
Germanwings / 4U 9525 A320 Alpine plane crash 24 Mar 2015
Mar 26, 2015, 4:29 pm
#751
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atherton, CA
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Owner, Green Bay Packers
Posts: 21,690
I agree. I think some were much to quick to jump to the absolute conclusion about the co-pilot in the early days of the investigation. I looks bad, but the investigation has just begun.
Mar 26, 2015, 4:31 pm
#752
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: BSL/FRA or PHL
Programs: LH Miles and More, DL SkyMiles, Bonvoy, Hilton
Posts: 2,335
According to a quoted statement:
Quote:
Lufthansa does not have standard psychological testing, [Carsten] Spohr [CEO of Lufthansa] said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe...ain/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe...ain/index.html
Quote:
Lufthansa does not have standard psychological testing, [Carsten] Spohr [CEO of Lufthansa] said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe...ain/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe...ain/index.html
So I would argue that the statement made above by CNN is patently false.
Mr. Spohr certainly did not say LH does not have standard psychological tests. In fact he said candidates are evaluated using internationally recognized psychological tests.
He did imply very strongly that they don't generally do further psychological screenings in a standard way after the initial screening.
OTOH, it was brought out amongst the zillions of hours media coverage sometime today that there are no further formal psychological tests done as a general rule after an initial "DLR" screening (I'll do my best to find a reference, but it was on television in the background while I was working). A psychologist (a press-appointed subject-matter-expert-type) speaking during the spot mused that he is not sure how much the additional screening would bring, but it is a legitimate question to ask if further screening is warranted and when (and it would become also collective bargaining issue at some point).
Edit: Above quote notwithstanding, the sourced CNN article does, in fact state in a sub head-line that, "Lufthansa has no standard psychological testing after hiring" which seems actually to be true, but is not all that helpful in describing how the psychological screening is actually done, because the standardized part is done before the applicant is hired.
Last edited by N1003U; Mar 26, 2015 at 5:05 pm
Mar 26, 2015, 4:43 pm
#753
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YVR
Programs: BA Gold, HH Diamond, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 81
Two in front at all times
When I was sitting in the front cabin on AA flights (757/767 aircrafts) in Dec last year, I saw and learned how they kept two crews in front at all times.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
Mar 26, 2015, 4:52 pm
#754
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: PBI / JFK, ISP, LGA
Programs: AA, AS, AV, B6, DL, F9, WN
Posts: 866
When I was sitting in the front cabin on AA flights (757/767 aircrafts) in Dec last year, I saw and learned how they kept two crews in front at all times.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:00 pm
#755
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: oneword Emerald
Posts: 20,639
When I was sitting in the front cabin on AA flights (757/767 aircrafts) in Dec last year, I saw and learned how they kept two crews in front at all times.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
When one of the pilots had to go, he pressed the red light. The flight attendant then rolled out the food trolley and blocked the passengers' access to the front toilet. She guarded the access while another cabin crew swapped place with the pilot in the flight deck. After the business was done, they swapped places again and the trolley was removed. Simple. ^
But would that stop a suicide flight? Probably not, but at least the other guy won't have a free reign.
Please confine future discussion of procedures at other countries and airlines to this thread:
Thank you.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:03 pm
#756
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Mar 26, 2015, 5:11 pm
#758
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,044
A few things. They said the copilot was breathing normally but that is a pretty low bar for functioning. I think the scenario suggested a bit upthread, that some serious malfunction occured while the pilot was out and the copilot either thought he could deal with it and focused or panicked and didn't open the door are possible, although I agree that the intentional crash seems lost likely
Mar 26, 2015, 5:13 pm
#759
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: EDI, CGN, NYC
Programs: LH-SEN, DL-Platinum
Posts: 973
A few things. They said the copilot was breathing normally but that is a pretty low bar for functioning. I think the scenario suggested a bit upthread, that some serious malfunction occured while the pilot was out and the copilot either thought he could deal with it and focused or panicked and didn't open the door are possible, although I agree that the intentional crash seems lost likely
Mar 26, 2015, 5:14 pm
#760
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 11,669
Assuming this story gets fully confirmed, which it almost certainly will, this woud be the 6th or 7th confirmed incident of this sort in a commercial jetliner (and perhaps 8th if MH370 turns out to be another one). See:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015...sed-by-pilots/
It is also the first one by a pilot in the western world.
This would be a very hard problem to solve, but they better do something, even as window dressing to restore public faith in the pilots mental health, because the thought that your flight crew may be suicidal/homicidal is terrifying and traumatizing. The two-person in the cockpit policy plus twice per year mental health check ups (and/or other enhanced mental health awareness procedures) should be minimum. Perhaps also not allowing pilots to exit cockpit in flights of less than 2-3 hours.
The only positive thing from this story is that at least the machines (A320) are fine, now we need to fix the humans.
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015...sed-by-pilots/
It is also the first one by a pilot in the western world.
This would be a very hard problem to solve, but they better do something, even as window dressing to restore public faith in the pilots mental health, because the thought that your flight crew may be suicidal/homicidal is terrifying and traumatizing. The two-person in the cockpit policy plus twice per year mental health check ups (and/or other enhanced mental health awareness procedures) should be minimum. Perhaps also not allowing pilots to exit cockpit in flights of less than 2-3 hours.
The only positive thing from this story is that at least the machines (A320) are fine, now we need to fix the humans.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:15 pm
#761
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NCL
Programs: UA 1MM/*G. DL Gold for one more year.
Posts: 5,305
A few things. They said the copilot was breathing normally but that is a pretty low bar for functioning. I think the scenario suggested a bit upthread, that some serious malfunction occured while the pilot was out and the copilot either thought he could deal with it and focused or panicked and didn't open the door are possible, although I agree that the intentional crash seems lost likely
Mar 26, 2015, 5:15 pm
#762
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: Disgruntled HON**, Indifferent EK Gold, skeptical BA Silver
Posts: 1,734
This seems to be an unfortunate quote by CNN, perhaps compounded by real-time translation of the press conference that was not particularly clear/accurate. If one goes back at what Mr. Spohr actually said about psychological testing (see about 2:50 to 3:40 in the press conference that NewbieRunner cited in post #714 in both German and English), as part of the hiring process, applicants are subjected to standard psychological tests developed by the DLR (Deutsches Zentrum for Luft- und Raumfahrt ) which are internationally recognized. In addition, new hires are closely monitored for leadership skills and compatibility during training.
So I would argue that the statement made above by CNN is patently false.
Mr. Spohr certainly did not say LH does not have standard psychological tests. In fact he said candidates are evaluated using internationally recognized psychological tests.
He did imply very strongly that they don't generally do further psychological screenings in a standard way after the initial screening.
OTOH, it was brought out amongst the zillions of hours media coverage sometime today that there are no further formal psychological tests done as a general rule after an initial "DLR" screening (I'll do my best to find a reference, but it was on television in the background while I was working). A psychologist (a press-appointed subject-matter-expert-type) speaking during the spot mused that he is not sure how much the additional screening would bring, but it is a legitimate question to ask if further screening is warranted and when (and it would become also collective bargaining issue at some point).
Edit: Above quote notwithstanding, the sourced CNN article does, in fact state in a sub head-line that, "Lufthansa has no standard psychological testing after hiring" which seems actually to be true, but is not all that helpful in describing how the psychological screening is actually done, because the standardized part is done before the applicant is hired.
So I would argue that the statement made above by CNN is patently false.
Mr. Spohr certainly did not say LH does not have standard psychological tests. In fact he said candidates are evaluated using internationally recognized psychological tests.
He did imply very strongly that they don't generally do further psychological screenings in a standard way after the initial screening.
OTOH, it was brought out amongst the zillions of hours media coverage sometime today that there are no further formal psychological tests done as a general rule after an initial "DLR" screening (I'll do my best to find a reference, but it was on television in the background while I was working). A psychologist (a press-appointed subject-matter-expert-type) speaking during the spot mused that he is not sure how much the additional screening would bring, but it is a legitimate question to ask if further screening is warranted and when (and it would become also collective bargaining issue at some point).
Edit: Above quote notwithstanding, the sourced CNN article does, in fact state in a sub head-line that, "Lufthansa has no standard psychological testing after hiring" which seems actually to be true, but is not all that helpful in describing how the psychological screening is actually done, because the standardized part is done before the applicant is hired.
The problem seems to be: its only used on candidates and normally pilots are not being reevaluated or tested after that.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:23 pm
#763
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
A few things. They said the copilot was breathing normally but that is a pretty low bar for functioning. I think the scenario suggested a bit upthread, that some serious malfunction occured while the pilot was out and the copilot either thought he could deal with it and focused or panicked and didn't open the door are possible, although I agree that the intentional crash seems lost likely
(1) initiating descent into mountains
(2) locking door and not opening
(3) no communication with the other crew or controllers
is pretty damning and would essentially rule out both loss of consciousness and a panicked mistake as cause. I think it's ridiculous how people try so desperately to explain the by far most likely scenario away and instead propose all but impossible chains of coincidences. I just hope these people never serve on a jury.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:26 pm
#764
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
Unfortunately there's not really any way to detect reliably if someone is suicidal.
Mar 26, 2015, 5:35 pm
#765
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: Disgruntled HON**, Indifferent EK Gold, skeptical BA Silver
Posts: 1,734