Y meals in J today on OS 87 [reduced service in OS longhaul flights in December 13]
Dec 6, 2013, 2:21 pm
#46
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MSE
Programs: BA Silver, TK Elite, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, NEXUS/GE
Posts: 466
If you go to austrian.com even today and look at the long-haul business class product, they are advertising the full product. There is no mention that on flights in December, the services described aren't actually available.
It seems that there are a lot of apologists for Austrian Airlines around here who believe that the airline should be able to degrade a purchased product from the one that was advertised when it was purchased, without having to pay any meaningful compensation.
For those of you who believe this, how far would you be willing to let this go? What if Austrian ran out of catering budget, and no meals were served at all? What if Austrian were trying to save money on non-essential maintenance, and they let a flight go out with a lie-flat seat that was broken and wouldn't recline at all?
To what extent should an airline be permitted knowingly to deceive customers with respect to the services which those customers believe that they are purchasing?
That's fair, but let's be clear: As of right now, Austrian are not offering me any cash at all. I've contacted them and told them that their offers of vouchers and miles are unacceptable to me.
Tell me: What would you do if the vouchers/miles were unacceptable to you? What if the airline refused to negotiate with you, or (as in my case, so far) failed to even acknowledge your dispute?
Do you seriously believe that OS (and LH) can get away with this kind of misrepresentation?
You're quoting the MasterCard chargeback guide. MC is notoriously one of the worst issuers (from a cardholder perspective) for handling chargebacks. I used AX, which is one of the best.
It seems that there are a lot of apologists for Austrian Airlines around here who believe that the airline should be able to degrade a purchased product from the one that was advertised when it was purchased, without having to pay any meaningful compensation.
For those of you who believe this, how far would you be willing to let this go? What if Austrian ran out of catering budget, and no meals were served at all? What if Austrian were trying to save money on non-essential maintenance, and they let a flight go out with a lie-flat seat that was broken and wouldn't recline at all?
To what extent should an airline be permitted knowingly to deceive customers with respect to the services which those customers believe that they are purchasing?
That's fair, but let's be clear: As of right now, Austrian are not offering me any cash at all. I've contacted them and told them that their offers of vouchers and miles are unacceptable to me.
Tell me: What would you do if the vouchers/miles were unacceptable to you? What if the airline refused to negotiate with you, or (as in my case, so far) failed to even acknowledge your dispute?
You're quoting the MasterCard chargeback guide. MC is notoriously one of the worst issuers (from a cardholder perspective) for handling chargebacks. I used AX, which is one of the best.
Dec 6, 2013, 10:14 pm
#47
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
The pax were not happy. I think we were offered 5K miles depending on status ... and yes it was in Biz. But I am unsure what those from other programs got in the end.
What if Austrian were trying to save money...
on non-essential maintenance, and they let a flight go out with a lie-flat seat that was broken and wouldn't recline at all?
That's fair, but let's be clear: As of right now, Austrian are not offering me any cash at all. I've contacted them and told them that their offers of vouchers and miles are unacceptable to me.
But they also haven't turned you down. They are merely slow in responding. For me, these things always took months to resolve with LH.
Do you seriously believe that OS (and LH) can get away with this kind of misrepresentation?
You're quoting the MasterCard chargeback guide. MC is notoriously one of the worst issuers (from a cardholder perspective) for handling chargebacks. I used AX, which is one of the best.
Dec 10, 2013, 3:37 pm
#48
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern Italian Lakes
Programs: BA, *A, Hertz Goldstar, Mucci wannabee, Waitrose, safari Oleg
Posts: 1,545
I'd want cash. You should not have to accept vouchers or miles. This is not a goodwill thing they did not provide the product as described.
If you were sold the upgrade shortly before the flight and you were not warned about the slight downgrade from the well-publicized product description at the time, I would say you do have a case and should not have to accept vouchers or miles but some cash back.
I would have also been far more disappointed about the lack of the expected level of food and especially the lack of coffee menu, more than you would think, compared to the value of the items you did not receive. Despite your disappointment, which I do feel I would have as much of as you on these seemingly trivial items, I think you are owed only a relatively small proportion of the cash back.
Why not respond to them requesting the 100 euros in cash. True, what you missed is probably worth 20-30 euros at most, but there is the shock of disappointment etc., not being told when they already knew before the flight the full service was not provided and did not tell you (misrepresentation etc.)., so you could ask for 100 and then consider how much less you would accept.
If you speak German could be worth looking on some of the German / Austrian forums because it is sure others will be reporting this issue.
If a chargeback is going to harm your own credit record then "don't cut off your nose to spite your face".
If you were sold the upgrade shortly before the flight and you were not warned about the slight downgrade from the well-publicized product description at the time, I would say you do have a case and should not have to accept vouchers or miles but some cash back.
I would have also been far more disappointed about the lack of the expected level of food and especially the lack of coffee menu, more than you would think, compared to the value of the items you did not receive. Despite your disappointment, which I do feel I would have as much of as you on these seemingly trivial items, I think you are owed only a relatively small proportion of the cash back.
Why not respond to them requesting the 100 euros in cash. True, what you missed is probably worth 20-30 euros at most, but there is the shock of disappointment etc., not being told when they already knew before the flight the full service was not provided and did not tell you (misrepresentation etc.)., so you could ask for 100 and then consider how much less you would accept.
If you speak German could be worth looking on some of the German / Austrian forums because it is sure others will be reporting this issue.
If a chargeback is going to harm your own credit record then "don't cut off your nose to spite your face".
Dec 10, 2013, 5:36 pm
#49
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,505
I'm fascinated by the desire to same the OS "coffee service".
I had the opportunity (again) to sample this yesterday on an intercontinental flight and it was truly terrible: the coffee was simply luke warm.... Any Starbucks customer would have complained and received an new fresh brew...
Do I now get to charge back the fare paid ?
I had the opportunity (again) to sample this yesterday on an intercontinental flight and it was truly terrible: the coffee was simply luke warm.... Any Starbucks customer would have complained and received an new fresh brew...
Do I now get to charge back the fare paid ?
Dec 10, 2013, 6:18 pm
#50
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West
Posts: 3,357
Chargeback - - what is it?
A process or a complain to the credit card about wrong charge by merchants or fraudulent charges? Never done one other than in the past had 1 charge not belonging to me and one double charge for the same service/item. Each time cleared with a call to CC and not requiring any payments first etc.
I agree that the OP was wronged but to what degree I cannot comment. I understand the European carriers are held to higher standards and pay compensation for their transgressions. A minimum amount is offered for delayed or canceled flights if deemed carrier's fault, for example. Check the rules out. Some suggested that OP lost about 20-30 dollars worth of goods and services by this experience but he paid ~ 600 euros per ticket just for upgrades. Go figure that logic. OS offered 100 euro voucher implying the minimum they were not offering on this flight.
A process or a complain to the credit card about wrong charge by merchants or fraudulent charges? Never done one other than in the past had 1 charge not belonging to me and one double charge for the same service/item. Each time cleared with a call to CC and not requiring any payments first etc.
I agree that the OP was wronged but to what degree I cannot comment. I understand the European carriers are held to higher standards and pay compensation for their transgressions. A minimum amount is offered for delayed or canceled flights if deemed carrier's fault, for example. Check the rules out. Some suggested that OP lost about 20-30 dollars worth of goods and services by this experience but he paid ~ 600 euros per ticket just for upgrades. Go figure that logic. OS offered 100 euro voucher implying the minimum they were not offering on this flight.
Last edited by 1Newflyer; Dec 10, 2013 at 7:20 pm
Dec 10, 2013, 6:26 pm
#51
Join Date: May 2005
Programs: AAdvantage Gold, Milage Plus, Delta Skymiles, BA Executive Club
Posts: 61
How many people would have refused to buy an upgrade if they were informed beforehand that there wouldn't be the full C class meal offering?. I'll bet damn few if any.
I fly premium class for the comfort never for the food. I've had bad class meals and good premium economy meals. Should I be requesting a partial refund of my C class ticket if I don't thi8nk the meal is up to my notion of what a C class meal is supposed to be?
Get over it folks.
I fly premium class for the comfort never for the food. I've had bad class meals and good premium economy meals. Should I be requesting a partial refund of my C class ticket if I don't thi8nk the meal is up to my notion of what a C class meal is supposed to be?
Get over it folks.
Dec 10, 2013, 7:19 pm
#52
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West
Posts: 3,357
How many people would have refused to buy an upgrade if they were informed beforehand that there wouldn't be the full C class meal offering?. I'll bet damn few if any.
I fly premium class for the comfort never for the food. I've had bad class meals and good premium economy meals. Should I be requesting a partial refund of my C class ticket if I don't thi8nk the meal is up to my notion of what a C class meal is supposed to be?
Get over it folks.
I fly premium class for the comfort never for the food. I've had bad class meals and good premium economy meals. Should I be requesting a partial refund of my C class ticket if I don't thi8nk the meal is up to my notion of what a C class meal is supposed to be?
Get over it folks.
Dec 11, 2013, 5:02 am
#53
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MSE
Programs: BA Silver, TK Elite, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, NEXUS/GE
Posts: 466
I'd want cash. You should not have to accept vouchers or miles. This is not a goodwill thing they did not provide the product as described.
If you were sold the upgrade shortly before the flight and you were not warned about the slight downgrade from the well-publicized product description at the time, I would say you do have a case and should not have to accept vouchers or miles but some cash back.
If you were sold the upgrade shortly before the flight and you were not warned about the slight downgrade from the well-publicized product description at the time, I would say you do have a case and should not have to accept vouchers or miles but some cash back.
I would have also been far more disappointed about the lack of the expected level of food and especially the lack of coffee menu, more than you would think, compared to the value of the items you did not receive. Despite your disappointment, which I do feel I would have as much of as you on these seemingly trivial items, I think you are owed only a relatively small proportion of the cash back.
Why not respond to them requesting the 100 euros in cash. True, what you missed is probably worth 20-30 euros at most, but there is the shock of disappointment etc., not being told when they already knew before the flight the full service was not provided and did not tell you (misrepresentation etc.)., so you could ask for 100 and then consider how much less you would accept.
Why not respond to them requesting the 100 euros in cash. True, what you missed is probably worth 20-30 euros at most, but there is the shock of disappointment etc., not being told when they already knew before the flight the full service was not provided and did not tell you (misrepresentation etc.)., so you could ask for 100 and then consider how much less you would accept.
Chargeback - - what is it?
A process or a complain to the credit card about wrong charge by merchants or fraudulent charges? Never done one other than in the past had 1 charge not belonging to me and one double charge for the same service/item. Each time cleared with a call to CC and not requiring any payments first etc.
A process or a complain to the credit card about wrong charge by merchants or fraudulent charges? Never done one other than in the past had 1 charge not belonging to me and one double charge for the same service/item. Each time cleared with a call to CC and not requiring any payments first etc.
You can also charge back when the charge itself was made legitimately, but the merchant either doesn't provide the product or services at all, the product is defective, or the product or services are not as advertised. In this situation, you are required to try to work out the problem with the vendor first. But, if you can show the card issuer that the vendor has not made any reasonable attempts to resolve the problem (or has been uncommunicative entirely), they'll proceed with the charge back.
Good idea. I don't speak German but Google Translate isn't bad.
Dec 11, 2013, 5:39 am
#54
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 945
The problem is that chargebacks have to be filed within a limited period (60 days, I believe) of purchase. I can't give OS months to decide that they want to do nothing, and then I have no recourse with my card issuer, either.
Indeed, I was sold the upgrade at check-in, and was not warned about the downgrade, however slight some may perceive it. In some circumstances I might be placated by vouchers or miles, but I have no use for either in this case. I won't be satisfied with anything but cash.
I've asked them for the entire upgrade fee (x2 passengers) back. I don't know that I will get that, but it's a starting point for negotiations. I'm willing to consider an amount less than the full €599 per person, but more than the €0 which is currently being offered.
Certainly incorrect and fraudulent charges can be charged back.
You can also charge back when the charge itself was made legitimately, but the merchant either doesn't provide the product or services at all, the product is defective, or the product or services are not as advertised. In this situation, you are required to try to work out the problem with the vendor first. But, if you can show the card issuer that the vendor has not made any reasonable attempts to resolve the problem (or has been uncommunicative entirely), they'll proceed with the charge back.
Good idea. I don't speak German but Google Translate isn't bad.
Indeed, I was sold the upgrade at check-in, and was not warned about the downgrade, however slight some may perceive it. In some circumstances I might be placated by vouchers or miles, but I have no use for either in this case. I won't be satisfied with anything but cash.
I've asked them for the entire upgrade fee (x2 passengers) back. I don't know that I will get that, but it's a starting point for negotiations. I'm willing to consider an amount less than the full €599 per person, but more than the €0 which is currently being offered.
Certainly incorrect and fraudulent charges can be charged back.
You can also charge back when the charge itself was made legitimately, but the merchant either doesn't provide the product or services at all, the product is defective, or the product or services are not as advertised. In this situation, you are required to try to work out the problem with the vendor first. But, if you can show the card issuer that the vendor has not made any reasonable attempts to resolve the problem (or has been uncommunicative entirely), they'll proceed with the charge back.
Good idea. I don't speak German but Google Translate isn't bad.
nothing personal here.......but My crystal ball tells me that you will not get anything back even when using AMEX , you got the seats with a much better food and service compare to the rest of the Y pax....
i would NEVER NEVER pay $800 for food and service but only for seat comfort and personal space, lets put it this way...would you pay $800 to get Business class meal and drink service in Y????? maybe $60-$80???
do let us know when you hear from Austrian
btw....somebody that was displeased with OS NEK 5 hour flight in business (on a UA issued award ticket) was able to get 20k or more UA miles deposited in their account...since you are a UA MP user, you can ask them to do something similar to that
Last edited by divjan; Dec 11, 2013 at 5:44 am
Dec 13, 2013, 1:14 am
#58
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MSE
Programs: BA Silver, TK Elite, Marriott Lifetime Platinum, NEXUS/GE
Posts: 466
Dec 13, 2013, 9:44 am
#60
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 954
I'm fascinated by the desire to same the OS "coffee service".
I had the opportunity (again) to sample this yesterday on an intercontinental flight and it was truly terrible: the coffee was simply luke warm.... Any Starbucks customer would have complained and received an new fresh brew...
Do I now get to charge back the fare paid ?
I had the opportunity (again) to sample this yesterday on an intercontinental flight and it was truly terrible: the coffee was simply luke warm.... Any Starbucks customer would have complained and received an new fresh brew...
Do I now get to charge back the fare paid ?