OK, so I want a one-way upgrade for 20000 miles on the return of a transatlantic trip. Question is: what constitutes the "return":
Outward Day 1: DUB-AMS-ORD
(26 hours in ORD)
Outward Day 2: ORD-DTW-BNA
(a few days in BNA)
Inward Day 1: BNA-DTW-ORD
(14 hours in ORD)
Inward Day 2: ORD-DTW-LAX-AMS-DUB

3 possible interpretations:
1) BNA-DTW-ORD-DTW-LAX-AMS-DUB, on the ground that BNA is, in effect, the start of the return of my trip and that there is no stop-over between BNA and DUB (less than 24 hrs in ORD in this direction). Needless to say this is my favourite interpretation
2) ORD-DTW-LAX-AMS-DUB, on the ground that all segments are flown continuously (I should get all 4 boarding passes in ORD) with no more than 2 hours between flights
3)LAX-AMS-DUB, on the ground that LAX is the point furthest away from origin (presumably, KL's FD interpretation ) ?


Second question: can one upgrade on AMS-DUB (operated by EI)?


[This message has been edited by NickB (edited 01-20-2003).]

I upgraded a while back on NW with KL FD points. Route was Denver-Detroit-London, but the upgrade only applied for the Detroit-London leg. Unlike some carriers, my understanding is that you have to pay per sector with KL/NW

The official position is that award are now region-based rather than point-to-point.

The issue here is the complexity of the routing, which makes me unsure as to what is to be regarded the return portion of the trip.

Hi Nick...like you, I would definately go for option 1...it would be clear from your ticket when and where your return is from...but, don't hold your breath on getting upgraded to 'First', so called, on NW domestic as part of the 20000 mile upgrade. I'm still waitlisted for a couple of flights in 4 weeks time...to me, the important bit is the 'red eye' flight back home..which on KL metal is a darn sight easier than NW. Cheers.

Swiss Tony...Nick is right...region to region...there should be no 'extra' miles required for NW domestic upgrades. I recently did a trip to LAX via MSP and got the internals upgraded...(as part of the miles upgrade, not because of my PE status)
The round trip LHR/AMS/MSP/LAX and back cost me 40000 miles...in my book, a pretty good deal. (ps Shame that KL are handing over the AMS..MSP/DTW routes come April..means the usual hassle with getting upgraded seats with NW...on ancient DC10s')

I tried to upgrade DUB-AMS-IAD just after new year and was told that by the help desk that upgrades on EI (DUB-AMS) are not possible.

C-Class awards apparently are possible.


-- Dambus

Mike, I thought NW are dumping their D10's & replacing with Airbuses....

One other thing.... does anyone know if KL have a sub-class for upgrades, or is it simply a case of if seats are available, you can get them?

I was told that the first AirBus route will be LGW/DTW later this year, followed by MSP late in the year....don't know about the AMS routes though.

Hi Mike.
mmm... the itinerary is on 3 different (albeit joined) tickets: 1) DUB-AMS-ORD then 2) ORD-DTW-BNA-DTW-ORD, then 3) ORD-DTW-LAX-AMS-DUB. What is more, ticket 2 is on a different fare basis from ticket 1+3.

I agree on the redeye transatlantic being the key one.
Looking at the WPAA lister, there seems to be availability for First awards under WP for all relevant NW segments except (surprise, surprise...) the DTW-LAX. Presumably FD awards are taken from the same bucket?

Also, if FD insists that 20000 is only from LAX, and therefore only LAX-AMS, since upgrades are not available on AMS-DUB (thanks for the info, Dambus), would you wait until February to see whether the web@wards promo on MIA/LAX mentioned in another thread appears (would it apply to upgrades as well as full-blown business awards)?

My travel is in March, so fairly low season. (I was even able to get 9C, which has to be the best economy seat, on AMS-ORD ).



[This message has been edited by NickB (edited 01-21-2003).]

Hi Nick. I think I would get on to FD now and get confimed upgrades done and dusted as quickly as possible...(ask for Luca, who I found very helpful a couple of weeks back)...and if a new deal comes out..it would be worth going back to him, even if you have to pay a 2500 mile penalty for changes. Do explain that your homeward journey is starting before LAX and you would appreciate the NW connections, etc etc...sorry, sound like I am preaching to the converted ! If it doesn't work out, let me know by Email, as I have another way of getting the rules bent through the UK.

Couldn't we all do with one of those from time to time!

Confirmation from the Helpdesk:

Awards are region to region, but upgrades are strech by stretch and not region to region.
This is also explained on page 56 of the handbook.

I discussed this with the agent on the following example:
So you have to pay 10000 points for every US domestic upgrade and 10000 points for every european upgrade.The 20000 points for the Europe-US upgrade are actually charged for the transatlantic stretch.....

Examples:

Routing:
FRA-AMS-DTW-MSP-SFO 50000 miles for an upgrade from FRA-SFO

FRA-AMS-DTW-SFO 40000 miles for an upgrade from FRA to SFO

AMS-DTW-SFO 30000 miles for an upgrade from AMS to SFO

AMS-SFO 20000 miles for an upgrade from AMS to SFO

Hope this helps....



[This message has been edited by Threy (edited 01-22-2003).]

And LHR to AMS to connect ?
I think that so far, I must have been lucky with my upgrades as 40,000 is the most that I have paid under the 'new rules'...the last trip being Gatwick..Detroit..Toronto, all on NW of course.

Well, lengthy discussion with the Elite helpdesk this morning, resulting in what I expected, only worse ( )

Routing via LAX is not a valid routing for a BNA-AMS upgrade. I could have got BNA-DTW-AMS, but not BNA...-LAX-AMS. Ditto for ORD-AMS: ORD-DTW-AMS valid, but ORD-DTW-LAX-AMS not valid (fair enough so far).

So, I thought: can I get a two-way upgrade for 40000 for AMS-ORD-DTW-LAX (outbound) and LAX-AMS inbound? AMS-ORD-DTW-LAX is a valid routing for LAX and you are entitled to one free stop-over on a return award.
Answer is no (this is where it gets worse) because
1) my ticket includes additional segments between arrival in ORD and departure to DTW-LAX from ORD (namely the ORD-DTW-BNA-DTW-ORD);
AND
2) I have two locators for this trip: a KL one and a NW one. The KL locator contains only the DUB-AMS-ORD and LAX-AMS-DUB segment. The NW locator contains all segments except the very first one (DUB-AMS). Could not book the award under the KL locator since it does not include the internal US segments. Cannot book a return award with a free stopover under the NW locator because departure city (AMS) and return city (DUB) are not the same in the NW locator.

Answer 2) is pure Kafka.
Answer 1) is interesting. As far as the fare rules are concerned, what I have booked and purchased is a DUB-LAX return with a stop-over in ORD and a distinct ORD-BNA fare nested in. Indeed, I could have bought these as separate tickets for roughly the same price (a little more in tax) or even cheaper by booking the ORD-BNA fare under CO code (20GBP cheaper than NWA). So why on earth can it not be regarded in the same way for an upgrade award, ignoring the ORD-BNA sections (on which I am would not be looking for an award upgrade)?

By the way, Threy, what the helpdesk told you is WRONG: upgrades are NOT segment-based but region-based. However, they are only available for official routings. Thus, FRA-AMS-DTW-SFO is 20000, not 30000. Call again, and speak to a better informed agent.


[This message has been edited by NickB (edited 01-22-2003).]