angra

The Yeshiva World article says that someone from KLM threatened to blacklist them back at the beginning of their trip 2 weeks earlier. There is more to this story than has been told.

uanj

I think you are spot on. When this group initially flew from JFK-AMS on KL the FAs said the girls would not obey their instructions. When they landed they were given a "final warning" and told if they do not obey instructions going forward they will not be permitted to fly on KL.

I have not been on KL during the pandemic but I have been on trains where they ask you not to eat or drink at the same time as the person sitting next to you. Maybe KL has a structure meal policy where aisles and middles cannot eat at the same time. Not sure, just speculating. The KBP-AMS FAs said that in addition to not following the scheduled meal times some passengers were in the aisles and not masked.

Other articles in Europe give better details. 18 Orthodox Jewish girls taken by security after misbehavior on plane | Abroad (netherlandsnewslive.com)

This is starting to remind me of the AA flight where a group of high schoolers would not wear masks....

NWplatinum

Another passenger “John” describes the girls as pleasant, polite, and not causing a disturbance at all. KLM also doesn’t want to release a comment which makes me think they’re truly investigating this and it’s not black and white.

Let’s see what the “more to this” is if it exists. I’d also note the article above is two days old whereas the yeshivaworld article was written today. It gets quotes from passengers, and family members. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the most current article.

But again I guess we’ll see…

johan rebel

What rule?

I've never heard of it, despite ≈50 pandemic flights. None of the other posters here have reported hearing of it. That somehow leads me to the conclusion that there were not hundreds of passengers on the flight because they like a rule that doesn't exist. It is far more likely that they were on the flight because they wanted or needed to travel somewhere.

Johan

Silver Fox

Indeed. Neither of these places say anything about some sort of mythical unicorn eating schedule, and it just comes back to a power trip as something has triggered the FAs and they are dangerous when that happens:

Delta face masks

KLM onboard

Happy to be pointed at the rules that show the eating and drinking schedule for these carriers.

Bowgie

I flew USA - Spain two weeks ago. Outbound was on KLM and return was on Air France.

On boarding, both airlines announced that all pax are required to keep mask on for the duration of the flight with the exception of meal service. After reaching cruise altitude, meal service was brought out and soon collected from the pax who were first served. All plates were collected as soon as people could reasonably finish their meal.

At the conclusion of the meal service, it was announced, "Meal service is now concluded. KLM (or Air France), requires all passengers to resume wearing their masks." I have flown KLM (and Air France) a lot pre-pandemic, and the meal service, and especially the collection of the used tableware, could only be described as "very leisurely". Not anymore.

KLM is not directly saying when people can eat, but only that masks must be worn at all times, and they are allowing a narrow exception when *they* are quickly serving food and drink. They make this perfectly clear to anyone with half an ear open to the flight announcements.

zymm

It seems they were also kicked off a second DL flight after being booted from the replacement for the KLM flight where they were denied boarding, although on the DL flights it seems the reason was switching seats? This whole thing is a mess, and since a lot of the communication with the press seems to be through the lawyer for the girls I'm not sure how trustworthy any of these articles are.
https://news.yahoo.com/18-orthodox-j...160528386.html

johan rebel

I have flown both AF and KL TATL, and have never heard such an announcement. The meal service in J was pretty much as usual, and as leisurely as usual. I just checked: I have two ears, and my hearing is excellent. Maybe they only tell the far more contagious pax in coach?

Johan

johan rebel

That rabbi Kahan is sure quick to blame the whole thing on antisemitism.

Johan

kthomas

Funny, I've done 6 RTs on AF/KL and a lot of intra-Europe flying in the past 15 months, and never heard anything like this. My ears, like Johan's, work fairly well. Heck, the stewards on a few of those flights, kept bringing me hot cookies on a plate with my coffee-- not to mention, the lack of anything better than cloth masks for many SkyTeam personnel.

The coach experience last month CDG->ATL (gosh that's a long flight) was pretty much the same. (Oh let the upgrade price be low next week!)

I think there's a lot we evidently don't know here, accounts in the media are predictably thin and inaccurate, I've generally found KLM staff to be reasonable and very patient, and my experience of Orthodox Jewish girls might suggest that they are sometimes not nearly as innocent as they would seem.

We all would probably do well to step back, and head for a container of salt to sprinkle on this story.

kthomas

Oy. A number of years ago TLV-JFK, I found myself in a middle seat between two women. Their husbands had decided to take the row behind us.

I tell you, I certainly didn't get any sleep on that flight.

Transpacificflyer

I am weary of such people. Just get them off the plane and don't ever let them on again. It is apparent from the news that this was a group of obnoxious selfish people. If they were truly religious they would have observed an underlying tenet of their faith that holds that the preservation of human life overrides virtually any other religious rule. The regulations were in place to preserve life.

NWplatinum

“such people” what is that even suppose to mean?

Transpacificflyer

It means the type of people who were removed from the flight. After reading the links and other information available it is apparent that this was a group of inconsiderate, disrespectful, hypocritical, uncouth, rude, boors. This had little to do with religious affiliation, because they could have been devouring a side of Texas BBQ Ribs and the result would have been the same.

kthomas

It appears reasonable to conclude (a) the meaning is "Jewish people" in the end and (b) if the commenter is called on that fact, they will identify other alleged characteristics, in a manner quite similar to when someone is called out for targeting black folx or others for undue discrimination.

I'm willing to believe the girls' behavior was far from stellar. I don't know what happened here, and none of us do given the paucity of accurate and clear reporting. Perhaps the KLM staff over-reacted; in any case we just don't know.

Is saying "such people" invoking a little bit of anti-semitism, perchance, given that we apparently have no reliable first hand accounts? Youbetcha; in any case it's sorting people into broad, perhaps racial, sweeping class generalizations.

(I came here seeing further specifics and some better sense of what actually happened, after all-- FlyerTalk being one of the few forums where one mightfind some accuracy. Frankly, I didn't come to hear anyone throwing around a phrase such as "such people," other kibbitzing aside).