KLM 2 person cockpit rule
Feb 4, 2021, 5:23 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
KLM 2 person cockpit rule
Does anybody know what KLM policy is around the 2 person cockpit rule.
I know this was implemented after germanwings but not sure if they still have it in place? A lot of European airlines got rid.
How would they prevent an incident like this happening again without this policy?
I know this was implemented after germanwings but not sure if they still have it in place? A lot of European airlines got rid.
How would they prevent an incident like this happening again without this policy?
Feb 4, 2021, 7:04 am
#3
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Feb 4, 2021, 7:27 am
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
Thank you
Feb 4, 2021, 7:32 am
#5
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 12
The 2 persons in the cockpit rule was in place for approximately one year after the Eurowings incident. After carrying out a risk assessment, KLM decided to remove the rule.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
Feb 4, 2021, 7:44 am
#6
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The 2 persons in the cockpit rule was in place for approximately one year after the Eurowings incident. After carrying out a risk assessment, KLM decided to remove the rule.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
I appreciate a determined member of cabin crew could incapacitate the remaining pilot but if they were that determined, they could do this during the 30 minute check?
Feb 4, 2021, 7:52 am
#7
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 12
This sounds like accountant speak for "it cost money", but I am not sure that stacks up either. Yet, having someone else in the cockpit prevents the situation of one person restricting access to others.
I appreciate a determined member of cabin crew could incapacitate the remaining pilot but if they were that determined, they could do this during the 30 minute check?
I appreciate a determined member of cabin crew could incapacitate the remaining pilot but if they were that determined, they could do this during the 30 minute check?
Without going into too much detail, the risk assessment carried out in conjunction with the Dutch CAA found that there was little benefit to having a CA on the flight deck, and it was therefore withdrawn.
Feb 4, 2021, 8:04 am
#8
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I don't quite understand your point about not having a Cabin Attendant stepping out of the cabin to sit on the flight deck for a few minutes would "cost money". This certainly wasn't the deciding factor in withdrawing the guideline.
Without going into too much detail, the risk assessment carried out in conjunction with the Dutch CAA found that there was little benefit to having a CA on the flight deck, and it was therefore withdrawn.
Without going into too much detail, the risk assessment carried out in conjunction with the Dutch CAA found that there was little benefit to having a CA on the flight deck, and it was therefore withdrawn.
Feb 4, 2021, 8:24 am
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
The 2 persons in the cockpit rule was in place for approximately one year after the Eurowings incident. After carrying out a risk assessment, KLM decided to remove the rule.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
It was felt that forcing a Cabin Attendant to stay in the cockpit while one of the pilots (for example) visited the lavatory did not offer any safety benefit and in some cases might even affect flight safety negatively.
Feb 4, 2021, 8:53 am
#10
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 12
Security is a sensitive issue, which is probably why there was no press release at the time.
Feb 4, 2021, 9:10 am
#11
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
The major difference being that bolting a black box on the rear of the aircraft doesn't increase risk. I'll let you think about that.
KLM definitely got rid of the 2 person rule, as stated above.
Security is a sensitive issue, which is probably why there was no press release at the time.
KLM definitely got rid of the 2 person rule, as stated above.
Security is a sensitive issue, which is probably why there was no press release at the time.
How would KLM prevent a scenario like the Germanwings incident then do you know?
Or would there be quite simply no way around it would?
Feb 4, 2021, 11:04 am
#12
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,333
I know practically nothing about flying an aircraft, but if a skilled pilot were to intentionally engage in an extreme maneuver intended to bring down the plane, is there really anything a flight attendant could do to reverse course in time? I would imagine there are at least a few scenarios where even a highly skilled pilot would be unable to recover in time. Fortunately, these incidents are very few and far between, and definitely not something to waste one second worrying about. It does reinforce the need to ensure that pilots are well-rested and compensated fairly (especially for low-fare and RJ), along with periodic wellness checks.
Feb 4, 2021, 11:44 am
#13
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Here in the US (maybe in Europe) having two people in the cockpit started after 9/11 with the locked cockpit doors. Can't exactly have one pilot up there and have him/her have to get up to let the other pilot back in. When all that was set, it was a big PITA to get used to, but like all things. flight crews adapted.
And like some of the sentiments here, I don't think there are too many F/A's around who could stop me from crashing the airplane if I wanted to.
And like some of the sentiments here, I don't think there are too many F/A's around who could stop me from crashing the airplane if I wanted to.
Feb 4, 2021, 5:46 pm
#14
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Remember, the extra person is not there to stop the pilot from doing anything, they are there to open the door if something goes wrong. For example, what if one pilot is out using the bathroom and the other single person in the cockpit has a medical event?