mpkz

Somehow I don't mind wearing a mask in a shop if it contributes towards bringing society closer to reopening..

brunos

Saliva (usually deep throat saliva) tests have been also been the ones used in Hong Kong since the start of the pandemic early 2020.
This is just a different way of collecting the sample. Then the sample is processed is tested using PCR or any other method (LAMP, ...). Saliva tests can be a bit less reliable because of the lower virus load in saliva.

It is easier to collect saliva than swab the nose, but the subsequent test is similar.
The Yale PCR test seems to be an improvement on some other PCR tests available. But swabs will always be a bit more relaible.

bostontraveler

I understand the science.

I cited two tests, not just Yale’s. There are others. I am not suggesting one method over another in this case.

My post was about promising new developments in saliva testing as they relate to speed (and purported efficacy) per travel requirements.

But we shall see!

Digicola

With this sort of ultimatum they kind of boxed themselves.

If they aren't granted the exception and decide to maintain flights, not only does KL lose all credibility but they also lose the goodwill of their staff that they were trying to be a "good employer" for.

I guess we'll know for sure today.

the810

Except it doesn't. Look at Spain with mandatory masks even on beaches or France which also has extreme mask mandates in place. There is no place in Europe where mask mandates were followed by reduced infection rates, nor is there a (positive) correlation between mask policies and covid results of individual countries.
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By the way, there is a well known country in Europe where most things are open and surprisingly, they don't wear masks. I've been living here for the last 3 months, going to restaurants daily, to a bar every weekend and even doing some shopping if needed. All that without people "contributing" by putting something over their face. I highly recommend a visit, it's an eye-opening experience. KLM offers daily flights to both ARN and GOT.

YYCCL3

I'm in AMS this morning and from the departure board, the only KLM flights going to Asia are to DEL & KIX. Looks like most of the Americas/Africa/ME flights are still running today. I will ask my cabin crew on board if they are immediately turning around and coming back tonight, or will still stay the night as they usually would.

Nice to see none of the KMar wearing masks, even though they work in a shared booth/office, including the ones that came out to the floor to discuss with pax...

NickB

OK, then if this is your position and since every business traveler has at least as high a chance as an overnighting KLM employee of being stranded abroad, what you are arguing for is that business travel abroad should not be allowed at all or that business travelers should be exempted from tests applied to other travelers and allowed to travel even if they are covid-positive. Which of these two solutions are you arguing for?

the810

Personally I don't see a reason why an infected person shouldn't be able to return home if it can be done in a safe way (e.g. minimising contact with other people) and if they will quarantine on arrival. Medical evacuations have been a thing for decades.

NickB

I agree with you. I think that it is entirely appropriate to have exceptions from the requirement to have a negative test before being allowed entry for medical emergencies and provided that appropriate medical safeguards are in place during transport. But, again, that does not justify requesting a special rule exempting air crews from tests.

NickB

OK, so let us unpack this. What you are saying is that the problem with subjecting air crews to tests is that, unlike most employers, airlines could end up with too high a proportion of their staff being incapacitated. In other words, the reason to exempt air crews from tests would be that too many of them might be covid positive!...mmm....are you really sure that you would want to defend such a position?

Ditto

No, that's not what I was saying, I was merely saying that a big portion of KL employees main job is to travel by air, which isn't the case for ABN Amro and most other employers.

And yet many countries have special rules in place to avoid having to have crews tested.

NickB

No, that is not what you said in so many words but what I was doing was unpacking the implications of what you said.
The implications of what you said is that KL is going to be more impacted that ABN Amro because more of their staff are likely to be stranded than ABN Amro's since more of their staff travel by air. Therefore, the implication of what you said is that the problem for KL is that too many of their staff would test covid positive and be stranded, which is not a problem that ABN-Amro would face.

Let us go back to what you said initially. You told us that the likelihood of air crew being covid positive was very low. Well, if that is the case, then the impact on KL's operations will also be very low.

Again, you are trying to turn an "is" into an "ought". Just because something is does not mean that it is the way it should be. "That's the way we do things 'round here" is hardly a principled argument. They clearly do it for pragmatic reasons but it is imo also clear that the choice that is being made increases risk. Some will think that the risk increase is acceptable. Others will disagree.

EricVdb

If you really want to be pragmatic, than you do not test crew and realise that doesn't increase the risk of importing new covid19 cases.
According (Dutch) health services, a covid test is highly unreliable either when without symptoms or when close to the time of infection.
With crew hardly ever (nowadays) staying more than 48hrs (mostly shorter), the test will most probably not pick up an infection gotten abroad.
You might catch infections gotten before departure from Amsterdam, but that isn't the reason for testing.

Combine that with a test prior to departure from Amsterdam and a hotel quarantine at destination for those 24/48hrs and the risk becomes extremely low, while economic damage is also minimised.

And that can even be the rule of that bank employee who had to go abroad for something they couldn't use zoom for. (Or that employee just flies to Brusselse and gets in a train or cat to enter the Netherlands).

8420PR

I still can't see any evidence of any cancellations or even zeroing out flights. Anyone else seen anything? I'm interested in flights from Dubai next week, which I don't think is possible as an out an back (with same crew).

Also, I'm getting emails & test messages from KLM telling me I need a 72 hour PCR test, but zero communication (including on the website) about the 4 hour rapid test.

Digicola

Apparently the Antilles, Iceland, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Rwanda, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand and China are exempt from these restrictions so KL will presumably continue flying there.

Why Japan is still on the EU safe list despite having more daily cases than the Netherlands is beyond me.

KL is still trying to negotiate a compromise with the government, if none can be found by tonight the cancellations will start rolling in.