The MD11 should be grounded !
 

Hi there,

KLM is still operating the MD11 aircraft type for its pax operations.

With all the accidents and fatal crashes the MD11 is experiencing (far higher than similar modern aircraft types), why doesn't KLM retire the MD11 from operations?

It's been widely reported that the MD11 is unreliable at low speeds, with many planes bouncing back and flipping over upon landing.

Only yesterday a LH freighter crashed at RUH.

In my book there are a number of ways to cut down on costs... some of them acceptable, some of them unacceptable.

KLM should realize that there is a difference between offering crappy IFE on old aircraft configurations, and operating plane types that are clearly unsafe.

Isn't KLM being irresponsible putting passengers' life at risk?

Shouldn't the authorities ground this aircraft?

How much longer before this thing really goes wrong???

.

How many is "many"? 25? 30? There's the FedEx losses @ EWR and NRT, a China Eastern aircraft at HKG whose loss was more due to crosswinds and unskilled pilots than the characteristics of the airplane, and now this.

There were fewer than 190 MD-11s built, and AFAIK we've had 5 hull losses including SR111.

Here's a list of MD-11 accidents, though not totally up to date: http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq9.htm

The Boeing 727 went through a string of accidents at introduction because the tail-mounted engine configuration was unfamiliar to pilots and they had trouble learning to land it. There was nothing wrong with the design or build, just the flying technique. Same here. The MD flies differently and needs constant attention. The link above has some useful perspective on this if you scroll down.

There were two plane flips which were due to pilot error. The LH crash appears to have been from a fire in the cargo area. The Swissair flight was due to defective wiring which has been fixed already. This kind of uninformed scaremongering is the kind of thing that FT is renowned for.

An A321 flew into the side of a mountain near ISB this morning.

Shouldn't the authorities level all mountains forthwith?

Johan

As mentioned, the LH that came down was due to a fire in the cargo area. Which, of course, can happen on any kind of plane.

A related question, why are the old MD11's so popular for freight transport? Are they not way too inefficient fuel wise? I would think that, with cargo even more than passengers, weight and therefore fuel consumption is very important.

Most freighters, including all MD11s, are converted all-pax aircraft. Low acquisition costs more than make up for higher fuel consumption.

Johan

They're big, they're relatively new, they're cheap to pick up, there's enough out there to amass a fleet, and there's some commonality with the DC-10s that were mainstays of UPS and FedEx.

KLM is the only scheduled passenger carrier still flying MD-11s. I had my first and likely last MD-11 trip last year DEL-AMS. World Airways also keeps a couple going with charter / MAC work. All the other passenger airlines that flew MD-11s -- DL, KE, AY, LH, etc. -- took them off the line years ago or converted them to cargo.

It's hard to think of another aircraft type rejected so quickly and totally by its original operators. First revenue flight in 1990, almost totally gone from passenger service by 2005.

MD11's are quite modern and are very fuel efficient in comparison with the 744 and older. They have also proven very safe and reliable when carefully flown so freight operators love them.

The problems they've had in passenger service were far more related to very aggressive deals by both Boeing and Airbus to get airlines to get rid of them. Since there were no large numbers and training was expensive (no cross-type ratings, for example) airlines were receptive. Fedex and other freight operators have had more economics supporting the choice. being cheap, big and modern was a potent combination for them.

FWIW, LH wanted to order more MD-11s after the line was shut down as they were impressed by its cargo handling capacity (good weight/volume ratio and quick to load/unload).

Part of the MD-11's problem is that the read control surfaces (I think horizontal stabiliser in particular) is smaller than the DC-10 which in theory (and even practice) is fine because the derivative a/c is longer than the original. I guess some pilots may have given too much control input which resulted in the a/c reacting more than they intended and then trying to regain control (and then you have moments - given extended length - working against you). Shortened a/c in particular the A318 and 747SP have bigger rear control surfaces to compensate for their shortened length over the original airframe.

The other problem with the MD-11 is that is was more prone to breakdown than other widebody aircraft so had poor reliability.

In the hands of skilled pilots, I think the MD-11 is fine. The Fedex NRT flip 2-3 years ago may have resulted from heavy crosswinds which I seem to remember the flight crew of some other airline had shortly before aborted the landing.

Except if I missed something, the existence of a fire in the cargo area as a cause of the crash is absolutely not confirmed.

Its also worth adding that the problem was the wires on the IFE added by the airline, so it isnt the MD-11's fault.

flew last week from AMS to YUL on the M11 and it was one of the most smoothest rides ever.

KLM FA's are probably more than happy to get rid of the MD11's as well. A friend of mine complained that the galley is in the far back of the plane, right under that big tail engine. Trolley's have to be pushed up all the way, the angle of attack doesn't help with that either.

As a passenger I've not flown them much, but we certainly enjoyed the recent ride to PTY in Y comfort with 5 good seats in row 7&8 GHJ.

The forward WBC cabin in KL's MD-11 is far superior to what is offered in the airline's other aircraft.

Johan

Been on the KLM MD-11 quite often and its always been ok. Many are saying its a ..... to land at low speeds but KL have been using them to UIO for long enough without incident.....and that was an interesting approach if there ever was one.