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Originally Posted by johan rebel
(Post 14384976)
The forward WBC cabin in KL's MD-11 is far superior to what is offered in the airline's other aircraft.
Johan |
Hell, KLs MD11's are in far better condition internally than BA's 744's if what greeted me last week is anything to go by. They need refurbished....badly. Very tatty.
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
(Post 14385303)
Agreed - as a passenger on those planes, I feel neither unsafe nor uncomfortable. I have more issues with the old DC9-20/30s still flown by many US airlines which feel old and out of date.
Interestingly (for this thread), KL has now almost phased out the B737-300 fleet which was their DC-9-30 replacement. |
Originally Posted by MichielR
(Post 14387283)
Other than DL (the ex NW/Republic fleet) who else still operates these oldies?
Interestingly (for this thread), KL has now almost phased out the B737-300 fleet which was their DC-9-30 replacement. and yes, AF phased out all of their 737-300/500 some years ago and now KL has phased out many of their -300. |
Flipping Over MD11s
Originally Posted by BearX220
(Post 14379544)
How many is "many"? 25? 30?
There were fewer than 190 MD-11s built, and AFAIK we've had 5 hull losses including SR111. Here's a list of MD-11 accidents, though not totally up to date: http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq9.htm The MD flies differently and needs constant attention. The link above has some useful perspective on this if you scroll down. I agree that the numbers speak for themselves. 8 hull losses out of 190 planes ever built, 3 of the planes simply "flipping over" upon landing, with pilots complaining about how difficult the plane handles at low speeds (particularly upon touch down), stating the MD-11 is one of those planes "that can bite you real quick" being so notoriously "squirrely" to land that pilots routinely spent extra time in flight simulators practicing how to control the plane, with some of the airlines instructing all MD-11 pilots to manually fly the planes up to cruise altitude - in order to better understand their handling characteristics. Of course, in this day and age no single aircraft crash can be attributed to one unique factor or event, but rather to a combination/succession of different factors and events... The MD11's numbers however, are simply absolutely horrific. This is civil aviation, and not W.W.II or the Appolo project we are talking about here... These kinds of crash rates are simply unacceptable. As much as I used to enjoy flying the MD11 as a passenger, I think it has become increasingly clear that the MD11 is an unreliable/unsafe aircraft. It's simply too unforgiving in case some thing(s) go wrong. And as much as many here seem to love flying the MD11 (which is also quite an indication about the hard product on other KLM aircraft types), I think an intervention by the Dutch authorities is long overdue. The MD11 fleet should be grounded. According to WIKI: Notable accidents and incidents * China Eastern Flight 583, a MD-11 went into severe oscillations on April 6, 1993 when a crew member accidentally deployed the slats during cruise flight over the Pacific Ocean near the Aleutian Islands. Two passengers ultimately died. * FedEx Flight 14, MD-11 N611FE, crashed during a landing at Newark Liberty International Airport, New Jersey on July 31, 1997. The aircraft flipped onto its back and subsequently burned, following a landing attempt from an unstabilized flare. [HULL LOSS] * Swissair Flight 111, HB-IWF, crashed into the Atlantic Ocean on September 2, 1998 while en route from New York City to Geneva, Switzerland. All 229 people on board perished. The cause of the crash was determined to be a fire caused by improper wiring of Swissair-added passenger entertainment system units. The fire started at the front of the aircraft and quickly grew uncontrollable, attributed partly to the poor flame retardant properties of its metalized mylar insulation. [HULL LOSS] * Korean Air, MD-11 HL7373, crashed shortly after take off April 15, 1999 while operating cargo flight KE6316 from Shanghai Hongqiao International Airport to Seoul. After take off, the first officer contacted Shanghai Departure, which cleared the flight to climb to 1500 meters (4900 ft): "Korean Air six three one six now turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey climb and maintain one thousand five hundred meters." When the aircraft climbed to 4,500 feet (1,400 m) in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1,500 ft (457 m), thought that the aircraft was 3,000 ft (914 m) too high. The captain then pushed the control column abruptly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. [HULL LOSS] * China Airlines Flight 642, a MD-11, crashed August 22, 1999 while landing at Hong Kong airport during a typhoon that exceeded the plane's crosswind specifications, also flipping onto its back and burning. Three passengers were killed. [HULL LOSS] * FedEx Express Flight 87, MD-11 N581FE, was written off after landing at Subic Bay International Airport, Philippines on October 17, 1999. The aircraft was operating from Shanghai Hongqiao International Airport. Upon landing, the aircraft rolled down the whole length of the runway before plunging into the bay where it was completely submerged except for the cockpit. An excessive approach and landing speed was pointed out as probable cause of the accident. [HULL LOSS] * FedEx Express Flight 80, N526FE, crashed at Narita International Airport, Japan on March 23, 2009 while landing in windy conditions. Airport surveillance video showed the aircraft becoming airborne again after the first touch-down, then impacting nose-first the second time and turning onto its left side, erupting into flames; the impact flipped the aircraft upside down. The aircraft finally came to rest some distance left of the runway. The two flight crew members were killed. [HULL LOSS] * On November 28, 2009, an Avient Aviation MD-11F, registration Z-BAV (c/n 48408), crashed on take-off from Shanghai Pudong International Airport on a flight to Bishkek-Manas International Airport, Kyrgyzstan with the loss of 3 lives. The aircraft was written-off. [HULL LOSS] * On July 27, 2010 a Lufthansa Cargo flight 8460, a MD-11, crash landed in Riyadh, Saudi-Arabia. The two pilots are reported to have survived. [HULL LOSS] |
This post does not belong in FT.
If you have a personal issue with the MD11, that's your problem. If you believe Dutch authorities should ban a plane, write to them. The only thing your posts will achieve, however, is that a number of visitors to FT (not regulars) who will look for information get scared without any reason. |
Originally Posted by MichielR
(Post 14390597)
This post does not belong in FT.
If you have a personal issue with the MD11, that's your problem. If you believe Dutch authorities should ban a plane, write to them. The only thing your posts will achieve, however, is that a number of visitors to FT (not regulars) who will look for information get scared without any reason. And the rest is my personal opinion, which i am perfectly entitled to. I think the MD11's safety record, as well as the reasons why KL has decided to extend their lease (completely refurbishing the cabin last year), the particular routes KL are using them on, and the reception these 'upgraded' MD11 cabins are getting among pax, are worth discussing. And we all know how sloppy the IFE can be on some of the KL configurations (e.g. in - but certainly not limited to - the old 3-4-2 MD11 layout). The fact that the MD11 is still operating pax-flights "scares" me indeed; with good reason imho. Although I sincerely hope nothing will go wrong, and KLM's pilots will be able to avoid the plane from bouncing back or flipping over. Maybe some of our fellow FF were unaware and are happy to be informed about this situation (particularly "the regulars"). Point is, I will never get into an MD11 again. I used to really love flying on RG's comfortable MD11s, and I used to really hate flying on AY's cramped MD11s, thinking that KL's MD11s were not much worse/better than what I got on KLM's other planes... I will now go out of my way to make sure I will not to have to fly on any MD11: with reason or "without any reason", as you so kindly put it. You can have my seat. I hope you will enjoy your flight. Besides, I never asked for the MD11 to be "banned". I just think it isn't wise (or acceptable) to employ them on pax-ops. Cheap leases or not. Refurbished or not. 3-3-3 or not. AVOD or not. . |
double posting - removed
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Originally Posted by maeharasmuse
(Post 14389548)
I think an intervention by the Dutch authorities is long overdue.The MD11 fleet should be grounded.
Originally Posted by maeharasmuse
besides, I never asked for the MD11 to be "banned".
Besides,to claim the MD is inherently unsafe because it requires unique skills / attention during descent is like claiming a big truck is unsafe because not just anybody can jump in and work the transmission. There's nothing inherently wrong with the aircraft. Some pilots have flown it wrong. |
Originally Posted by BearX220
(Post 14390828)
Doesn't make any sense.
Besides,to claim the MD is inherently unsafe because it requires unique skills / attention during descent is like claiming a big truck is unsafe because not just anybody can jump in and work the transmission. There's nothing inherently wrong with the aircraft. Some pilots have flown it wrong. IMHO, it's actually out right ridiculous to insinuate that the MD-11 should be removed from KLM's fleet. I highly doubt that The FAA in either The US and/or Europe would allow the MD-11 to operate dangerous planes in their air space :eek: |
Originally Posted by maeharasmuse
(Post 14389548)
I agree that the numbers speak for themselves.
...a crew member accidentally deployed the slats during cruise flight... ...following a landing attempt from an unstabilized flare... The cause of the crash was determined to be a fire caused by improper wiring of Swissair-added passenger entertainment system units. The captain then pushed the control column abruptly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. ...during a typhoon that exceeded the plane's crosswind specifications An excessive approach and landing speed was pointed out as probable cause of the accident. |
I miss them on the AMS-JRO-DAR runs but I had some scary landing is JRO due to the winds...
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Originally Posted by Cupart
(Post 14390862)
+1 ^
IMHO, it's actually out right ridiculous to insinuate that the MD-11 should be removed from KLM's fleet. |
Originally Posted by COFF-Platinum
(Post 14384959)
KLM FA's are probably more than happy to get rid of the MD11's as well. A friend of mine complained that the galley is in the far back of the plane, right under that big tail engine. Trolley's have to be pushed up all the way, the angle of attack doesn't help with that either.
As a passenger I've not flown them much, but we certainly enjoyed the recent ride to PTY in Y comfort with 5 good seats in row 7&8 GHJ. |
Originally Posted by Kamal Toe
(Post 14391347)
He wasn't 'insinuating'. He was downright declaring.
Slyly - "Dexterously" Just trying not to slag off the poor guy by using, maybe a little friendlier wording and tone, as in all fairness maeharasmuse has his right to air his opinion (maybe a little bit brisk this time) ;) |
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