A year ago there was this thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=654947

A couple of weeks ago, Q Shoe Guy let drop that he would be shutting up shop at the end of this month.
This news was posted and immediately followed by an assorted array of 'shoku', 'crikey', 'caramba' and 'collons' reaction comments. But it was in an inappropriate thread.

Hence this one.

There! You're all fully briefed now.

Heya Laplap, glad to hear you're well. We should all do lunch again sometimes -- I'll be over there in a few weeks.

And I gotta admit that I couldn't figure out this thread either until after a few subsequent posts provided context.

I have a friend, let's call him Art. A few years back Art decided he wanted to marry, more specifically a Japanese woman. At that time, Art was in his mid-late thirties. Art was raised in a midwestern state, let's call it Minnesota. But in the late nineties, he moved to the sunny, southwestern US, let's say Phoenix. With the internet as his friend, he started corresponding with Japanese women and visiting Japan. However, Art couldn't quite understand how Japanese women thought, and so he found a married woman(no kids), about his age, for a pen pal. Art thought Akiko could give him perspective into the Japanese womens' mind, without the cloud of romantic distortion. Art made a couple of trips to Japan without having the opportunity to meet Akiko, but they wanted to meet sometime. Finally, they found an opportunity and planned to meet at the A8 exit of Omotesando Station. Art was familiar with and enjoyed Omotesando, though he was more of a Shitamachi fellow. Akiko loved Omotesando for shopping and getting her hair done. Also, her father's business was in Omotesando (next to Maisen).

Art arrived early and found the A8 exit closed, so he hung out at the adjacent McDonalds. When Art saw Akiko, he knew he had a once-in-a-lifetime experience awaiting him. They walked to a nearby kaiseki restaurant and were shown to a private shoji-ed room. They exchanged omiage. Art brought her some of those oily nuts from Hawai'i (Akiko often visits Hawai'i with her husband). Akiko brought Art gifts from Brooks Brothers. Akiko told Art this restaurant was her father's favorite and he wished he could be there for their meeting, but was busy getting ready for a business trip. Art thought that strange: Why would Akiko want her father to meet her internet pen pal? Art was also wondering: Does this place take credit cards?...no way he has enough cash to cover the bill.

So, they chatted up a storm, and Akiko showed Art photos covering the last couple decades. Akiko asked Art why he wanted to get married, as she decided one year ago that she would divorce her husband and wanted 100 boyfriends, with Art being the #1 boyfriend. Then, the shoji slid open, it was Akiko's father. Art was a little startled, but went with the flow. Akiko's father was handsome, dressed in a medium gray suit, and charming fellow. Then, the photo taking started: Art and Akiko's father; Art, Akiko's father and the waitress; Art, Akiko's father, the waitress & the restaurant manager; Art, Akiko, Akiko's father, the waitress, the manager; and so on. Akiko's father left, and Art felt a little more comfortable...confused...but comfortable. Just a few minutes later, Akiko's father returned, took a seat and the waitress brought his food along. Akiko's father stayed until he completed his meal. He wanted to stay, but had to leave for an out-of-town business trip. After completing the meal, Akiko and Art left for Shibuya Station. Akiko wanted to take the Metro, but Art insisted on walking. (Incidentally, Akiko's father picked up the tab) While walking Akiko held Art's arm and as they walked, pressed her bussom into Art's upper arm. Art was convinced Akiko wanted to share carnal knowledge, but she insisted she leave for a English school party and she wouldn't have any more opportunities to see Art, this trip.

To this day, Art is confused by this episode. Finally, I told Art I'd present his story to the Japan Forum, for their thoughts.

Hmmm....my comment is, could you get Akiko's email addy? I could be BF #2. :) :)

More seriously, I have noticed (in the distant past, of course) that it is not uncommon for Japanese women to touch men lightly on a first social meeting when, say, responding to a joke, if they like the man and want to meet again. This is nothing obscene, just mild physical contact, and it may even go away on a subsequent meeting, having accomplished its purpose.

So Akiko wants to meet again and one should not conclude that physically it will necessarily proceed to more serious things, that's still to be determined.

My first instinct (and I think you have yo go with instinct on these things) is back off. Put distance while you can.

My impression is that the lady is in a difficult position in life, perhaps frustrated with her current situation, but she is not yet divorced and until that has happened she is dreaming. From my experience, frustrated people who find themselves in a corner and start dreaming of better futures are dangerous. This is not their fault and it has nothing to do with that person being bad or evil in any way. I think people succumb to a certain kind of weakness when they are trapped and and this leads to their sense of judgement being affected. It seems to be that she is in limbo caught between her desire (not necessarily sexual but to move onto a different, better situation in life) and the reality in which she finds herself with all the mundane details that that brings on, such as difference in nationality, how intimate can you get in the long run when there is a language barrier, how will her status change with a foreign partner etc.

My thought on the situation that your friend finds/found himself in is that details are not necessarily important here. Who paid the cheque, was the dad there, the restaurant that her father prefers, the location, all these things are indicative of the fact that she obviously likes the man and is giving it serious thought but the important thing here I think is that these should not be taken as evidence to suggest a progression in a workable relationship. Your friend is obviously prepared to throw his lot in, and you need that in a relationship. I think she is building bridges in her fantasy that don't correlate in to the steps you require to make things happen. If something similar is still going on I think it will never happen because the more time she spends trying to perfect her life the further she is from achieving it. Whatever concerns she has can be overcome, perhaps with a little compromise here and there but I think the important thing is that she needs to be confident in herself and in the relationship to be able to jump in. Everything els will just have to be fixed as you go along. However, if she has issues and doubt then it is probably best not to force anything as that doubt won't go away until she sorts it out herself - I am talking here about her past, her failed marriage perhaps (wild wild guess) than doubts specifically about her new partner. I don't think your friend has done anything wrong and seems to have acted perfectly, most gentlemanly, kind and generous. The trouble is, nothing might happen, he might end up very close to her in moments but a long lasting relationship may be impossible or disastrous.

But...

Do not despair! This malady is not cultural and certainly isn't the case that all Japanese people are like this. I also think, and I apologise for being rude and ruthless here, but for your friend to think "oh but I can be there for her and help her go though whatever she is going through " is possibly the worst thing because she has to deal with it on her own and no one can help her until she can truly point a finger at whatever it is her life is lacking and go "that's what I want". Only then can he actually say "I'll help you with that and let's do it together".


As a background - When I was teaching English I spoke to many people who wanted to change their lives and were grasping at opportunities to do so.
I spoke to a number of them privately in pubs and places (I was there for a social, they, I think had other plans) and to this day I cannot figure out the grand narrative behind what went on, no simple logical steps that I can trace back in the conversations, gestures and body language that would lead to me understanding what they hoped for that we could realistically construct in to a friendship, relationship or something else - even an affair where both parties know where they stand. The conclusion I came with after years of wondering what the hell had just happened was that I, a foreigner (sort of) was an easy host to project their fantasies on to and they were quietly desperate to get out of the circumstance in which they found themselves in. It was quite horrible as it eventually ended up being a cross between Sex and the City and Twin Peaks. If only life was like the A-Team....

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I should clear up that this particular incident happened a couple years back and that Art is only an occasional visitor to Japan. He and Akiko did meet a second time. During that second meeting, Akiko made clear she wanted at least a physical relationship. And subsequent to that visit, she emailed "special place" cell phone photos to Art. They continued email conversations that diminished over time.
Yes, I think that is an accurate portrayal. And I think the diminished emails show she has curtailed her dreams and is sticking with her husband.

That still leaves a couple of questions.

First, since Art doesn't live in Japan, he can't be there for her physically. I don't mean sexually, I'm thinking for coffee drinking, chatting and the like. With those "facts on the ground," being her #1 boyfriend would be impossible. The only way they can "be together" would be through marriage. In marriage they could theoretically be in either Japan or the US. Of course, Art never had any intentions along those lines, as the penpal friendship with Akiko was only meant to provide with perspective into Japanese womens' mind. Likewise, Akiko's conversation with Art indicated that she felt stifled by her own marriage and she suggested Art should consider the stifling affect marriage could have on his own life.

Second, how can the presence of the father be explained? For me, it seems strange for a married Akiko to talk about and introduce a man to her father. Actually, as I'm typing things are coming together in my head...she may have told her father of her divorce plans and wanted to show her father there are good men available and he need not worry.

Looking at the points/questions raised in the second post, MrLapLap, on second reading seems (to me) to have preempted those also.

But do please realise that many of us have unfathonable relationships with our parents, for some they take on the role of the ultimate confidante and Akiko's father may have been supporting his daughter through her crisis in their own private and unique way (don't attempt to understand it, if you were party to my relationship with my mother you'd clearly see how futile it can be - family dynamics are usually bizarre to outsiders). Your own interpretation sounds equally valid, but I think MrLapLap is right, don't dwell on his presence at the meal, it isn't necessarily important.

This thread made for interesting reading. ;) That said, I had a Japanese GF once before in Tokyo. But she mentioned her ex BF.. a no-no as some of us know. Then it went downhill from there when I left for Osaka. She sent me a message on the keitai that I bought through her mentioning that she was back with her ex BF. I was so shattered that day and I got pretty flustered about it, it was a totally blue day that day.

Which reminds me, next time I decide to date a Japanese GF.. I should remind myself to never let her mention her ex and how "abusive" he was to her and how much guilt she feels inside for him. Its just too much, let me tell you that.

Sanosuke!

This is starting to move into OMNI territory now. Nothing you have said makes your experience sound culturally specific to Japan. This could happen to anyone, from any country and any gender.

When professional Japanese government employees marry gaijin, will the gaijin typically be able to join his or her spouse's insurance plan with minimum hassle or expense?

In the US, the new spouse might add another 2-400 dollars/month to the employee's cost.



(my apologies for the vagueness)

Are Japanese teachers working in public schools considered professional Japanese public employees in your case above, or are we just talking about the folks who inhabit Kasumigaseki ?

If you are talking about health insurance, it depends on whether that particular foreigner naturalizes or remains alien. It also depends on whether the foreigner spouse has his/her own employment. Depending on those factors, it could be minimal hassle (just adding a name) and cost or it could be a massive red tape adventure with a chunk out of the wallet to boot.

Kasumigaseki-ish bengoshi. The gaijin would remain alien with a spousal visa.

Let the bengoshi handle it....

I was thinking....what do any of you know about Niigata? And apart from Koshihikari what is there?