evergrn

I didn't want to start a new thread for fear of creating a controversial thread, yet I have to get this off my chest.

Couple months ago I posted a detailed 5-star review of a hotel on Rakuten (Jpn website) in which I mostly posted objective info and also my opinions as to why the hotel is so great. But in that same review, I also took the opportunity to express my disappointment at so many other Japanese reviewers who were giving bad scores solely based on the large % of the hotel's clientele being from China and SE Asia. That hotel indeed is probably half or more foreigners in terms of clientele, but ime the foreign guests are well-behaved and does not do anything to deter from the hotel experience. My review simply had 1 or at most 2 sentences expressing this disappointment and expressing my support to the hotel for continued great hospitality towards guests from all over the world. 90% of my review was purely about the hotel and its merits.

I'm beyond p**sed to find out that Rakuten took down my post. I didn't say anything that violated their terms. To add context to this experience, I previously had accounts on a couple of Japanese forums previously for a short while, but each one ultimately ended up being either suspended or revoked, simply because someone complained after I criticized posters who were saying racist things and using slur words towards Koreans. Yes there may be 2 sides to the story, but I will just say that I've never had my account suspended/revoked on any American sites.

There're stupid people everywhere, and I'd like to think these xenophobic posts on the Internet do not reflect most Japanese people. But then when websites like Rakuten and Yahoo Jpn are taking their side, it's hard not to conclude that xenophobia wins over political correctness in Jpn.

freecia

I'd interpret it more as xenophobia and less inclusive national identity winning over tolerance and inclusion. I don't know enough to say whether it is politically correct in Japan to encourage inclusiveness and cultural/gender/orientation diversity. That's what it means in my very diverse part of the United States, but I suspect the literal term might be more used to indicate conformity to a more homogenous local culture in very nationalistic & homogeneous places.

I read Google Translated reviews on 4Travel, Rakuten, & Jalan and have noticed that there's reviews which mention foreign visitors. Some are complaints exhibiting racism towards well behaved foreign guests, others are complaints for genuine etiquette faux pas (like not washing properly before getting in the onsen or unsightly eating in the market parking lot), and some are factual stating "there were foreigners". Rarely do I come across criticism of the xenophobia of other guests so perhaps it is getting moderated. I've also come across a ryokan which actively advertises they do not accept foreign guests & promptly forgot where it was because I'll never visit. Some of the ryokans I've been to over the last few years employ people who speak English or train foreign employees to Japanese hospitality standards.

It is also seems to me that it might be somewhat Japanese to comment afterwards, semi-anonymously, than to directly address the issue when it arises. Micro-aggressions are also very common and from what I understand, Japanese internet culture can be more direct and negative than in-person communication (much like most of the internet regardless of language).

Probably further off topic & definitely opinion related -
In the vein of "unique to Japan", I think foreign visitors might assume that what they are doing is fine if they don't receive any active rebuke or there aren't posted signs to the contrary. It is useful to understand how Japanese people say no, acknowledge "active listening", and practice a little more context awareness because it is very different to most western cultures and high density Asian areas.

I've never asked, but if the same passive aggressive social media guy is slaying away on his smartphone finds himself sitting next to loud foreigners on a train, I will assume that foreigners are being judged and found lacking. Probably internally voiced and their antics might be relayed in detail to others at home, at the bar after a few beers, and on the internet.

I think many foreigners from high density countries would not care about this judgement as they're used to more immediate, active, & loud confrontation, thinking it will not impact them so why bother conforming to local standards. Possibly worse, the lack of correction may affirm their stereotype that "<Nationality> people are so nice and polite" and continue to irritate the locals. Definitely worse, they understand and try to take advantage of the "gaijin card" relaxed standards. Unfortunately, this can reinforce racist assumptions on both sides because it is an easy thing to attribute it to. I've seen Japanese train riders talk on the phone, converse loudly in groups, put on makeup, and eat/drink on a commuter. The individual is considered rude and ill-mannered. Some intolerant senior will probably take them to task one day. I hope that as the population in major cities get a little more diverse or well traveled, local people will start to understand that foreigners are also individuals and judge them by their own (de)merits. Similarly, for the visitors, look at the social cues in addition to posted signs and be considerate of others. Consider helping other tourists who might be floundering or politely indicate their behavior is not local norm because it'd probably get pretty bad before a Japanese person breaks the wa in person.

ETA: Yes, a foreigner breaking the wa by politely indicating something isn't the norm to another foreigner, thus calling attention to it, involves playing the ignorant gaijin card to the local Japanese. The irony isn't lost on me.

evergrn

You make a lot of good points.

For many of the more popular onsen/resort hotels in Hokkaido, 20-30% of Japanese reviewers on Rakuten make some type of negative remarks about foreigners (specifically Chinese, Asians). And these websites are just letting these reviews stick around. What an embarrassment. I stayed at an onsen place this past March during Jpn's spring break. The worst offenders were Japanese families, both in onsen and at dinner buffets.


This is totally true. Japanese internet forums can be brutal. People are quick to reprimand and put you down. You see this on US websites, but things are definitely worse in Jpn. I just think this is an extension of bullying that occurs a lot in Japanese schools, maybe. I made an anti-racism comment on a Yahoo Jpn forum thread (was soccer-related) which was apparently too do-goody-good and un-Japanese to everyone else's liking. It led to a cascade of inflammatory, derogatory comments (the phenomenon known as 炎上 'enjou') and somehow ultimately led to me getting en email from Yahoo notifying me that I'd violated their terms and that my account was being suspended.

I have love-hate with Jpn. It is wonderful to visit. It's safe, people are polite and professional, food is great, there's so much convenience. Even when you peel the layers, there's still a lot of good in Jpn, lot of depth to its culture, and there're many ordinary Japanese people I bond well with. On the other hand, there're so many things I find frustrating there.

freecia

More On Topic - Rachel & Jun "50 Facts about Japan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URDXZSJZ2ME points out some unique things which foreigners may find unusual.
(So that's what the two colored chevron sticker is on some rental cars - driving less than a year)
Backing into car spaces is unusual for me but a visiting co-worker said it was normal in Shanghai for the same reasons.

@evergrn - You might enjoy Dogen's Advanced Japanese Lessons if your sense of humor is self-deprecating or sarcastic
I've never understood how the loud political campaigning vans are possibly legal (turns out the Basic Election Law enforces this sort of campaigning?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOJAxf9XpoQ

kaka

what Social Media reporting mechanism does not have soemone sitting there removing posts that diss their income maker?
Facebook (HK) Ltd removes posts that complains about communist china too, in a move to lick xi's backside.
and also some restaurant reviewing sites in HK.

evergrn

Wouldn't happen in America, that's for sure.
You wouldn't see post after post of people making rude comments about Chinese on hotels.com or expedia.
I was a satisfied customer on Rakuten giving a 5-star review to the hotel.
If my being critical of prejudice/racism is taken as a diss and makes me the bad guy, then that is not okay.

kaka

evergrn

I don't know why you'd think I was being sarcastic.
You're implying that Chinese are not high quality tourists?
Do you really think it's justified that my review is the one that deserved to get deleted from Rakuten?

Was at Ocean Park with my daughter, we picked up food for lunch, I was gonna pay with Octopus card (had no cash, food place doesn't take credit card).
Octopus card reader wasn't working, so we were going to have to rescind the order. Then this mainland Chinese dad next to me said he'd pay for our lunch. I refused, but he waved me off and just paid for us. Complete stranger. From mainland China. Never had anyone else do that in Jpn or US.

Anyways, I was so frustrated with Japanese websites and wanted to vent so posted about this here, but maybe I shouldn't have.
I don't like where this is going, so we should stop.

armagebedar

Yes, I think this is a good place to end the derail, everyone. Further off topic posts will be summarily deleted.

Regards,
armagebedar
Japan forum moderator