Perche

cruisr

Having been to VCE probably 12 times I avoid St Marks at all costs. I'd rather wander around Cannaregio. I first visited in 1976. The crowds are definitely different now, in many ways. I'll be there again in June for 4 days but using it as a base for day trips to Verona and Padua.

crazcarl

If the problem is day-trippers, can they just tax the entry transportation more? Charge a higher fee to let cruise ships dock. And charge a higher tax for entering trains and boats. Then let the cruise ships/trains/boats pass the charge onto the customers.

jbeans

These pictures... just wow. I went a couple years ago for a few days during low season (November). There was even aqua alta on one of the days, but I'd gladly take it over the insanity during high season.

obscure2k

I understand wishing to avoid the crowds in St. Marks during the day in high season. However, late at night, when the cruise passengers have returned to their ships and the day trippers have gone, St. Marks is a magic, beautiful place to be. My husband and I travel to Venice every fall and there have been countless times we have been among only a handful of people and it is a breathtaking and very romantic experience.

rickg523

I have a 3 day visit to Venice scheduled for late June. And I'm staying on the front near Arsenale, instead of my usual haunt deep in Castello. Should be interesting.
I'll take pictures.

Perche

It is definitely breathtaking every time. I go there and have coffee just off the square, or in Quadri, one of the two bars (along with Florian) where they have small orchestras playing classical music. Outdoors with the music, a coffee is 15 euros. Inside the quadri at the counter, 2 euros. Same with Rialto. It's wonderful around 7AM when the fishing boats are coming in. Venice an work anytime of the year. The worst part for me in the summer is mosquitoes. People for some reason, book hotels that advertise, "close to San Marco and Rialto." What people should do is stay is away, and go there in the early morning or late evening. Then it is really magical.

Perche

Today they interviewed Franceschini, Italian Minister of Culture (who doesn't have authority in this) about the changes that Venice decided to make to remain a UNESCO site. Excerpts:

"No ai ticket a pagamento, ma gli accessi vanno regolati." "Controllo delle presenze sì, ma non a pagamento.“ No purchasing tickets, but access will be regulated. Control the presence of tourists, but not by making them pay.

"Penso però che i luoghi dell'arte che hanno già oggi un problema di sovraffollamento, e che sono di per sé contenitori fragili, non possano contenere un numero qualsiasi di visitatori. Fontana di Trevi, piazza San Marco, il Ponte Vecchio hanno una capacità di carico finita. Vanno tutelati." I think, however, that places of art have a problem with overcrowding today, and they have fragile contents, they cannot contain whatever number of visitors. Fountain of Trevi, Piazza San Marco, Ponte Vecchio have a finite capacity. They will be protected.

He went on to mention the many measures that the city will take to control the influx, mainly around the San Marco area, including counting the number of people entering the Piazza, an experiment that's supposed to start this summer. He went on to comment, "Credo che regolatori di accesso possano essere uno strumento utile - aggiunge Franceschini - ad esempio quando si superino certi numeri potrebbe essere utile attendere il giusto deflusso. Come accade già a Dubrovnik. È una cosa completamente diversa da un ticket o da una prenotazione. Ma è una scelta che spetta ai sindaci". “I believe that regulating access could be a useful means, for example, when the amount of people exceeds a certain number, only let more people in as others leave, as they already do in Dubrovnik. That's completely different from having to buy a ticket or make a reservation to get in."

Ma è una scelta che spetta ai sindaci". "These choices are up to the Mayor.
"Il ministro, infine, si dice d'accordo con norme più stringenti per i pullman turistici: "Bisogna governare la crescita. Si deve puntare su un turismo sostenibile, colto, che porti ricchezza, rispetta l'ambiente." "The minister also said he is in agreement with new stringent rules they are placing on tourist buses (guide buses like hop on-hop off, etc.): We have to govern the growth of tourism. We should aim for sustainable tourism, cultured, people who enrich us, and respect the environment."
(excerpts from Venezia Today, http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/f...o-venezia.html)

Venice does seem to bring in particularly unruly tourists. For example, this guy dives off the Rialto Bridge and goes swimming. Every once in a while, he has to get rescued. Two years ago a guy dove off the Rialto Bridge and landed right onto a speeding water taxi. He died. http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/t...o-venezia.html

Perche

Another interesting article on the topic of regulating Venetian tourism in Corriere del Veneto
http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it...29176005.shtml

Some excerpts.
Il giorno dopo l’approvazione della delibera-quadro sul turismo da parte della giunta Brugnaro, da Roma arrivano giudizi distinti sul pacchetto di misure ipotizzate dal Comune di Venezia per la gestione dei 30 milioni di turisti che ogni anno arrivano in città.

"The day after the Mayors Council approved the packet of measures to control the 30 million tourists who come each year, Rome has given its judgment.

Brugnaro è stato accusato di non muoversi, ben vengano allora queste misure sperimentali – commenta il sottosegretario Ilaria Borletti Buitoni – l’atto va accolto positivamente, non si può affrontare una nuova estate senza prendere alcuna misura. La decisione di contingentare gli accessi alla piazza spetta al Comune e la sperimentazione di Venezia può essere utile per poi venir applicata in altre città d’arte."

"Mayor Brugnaro has been accused of not doing anything, so these experimental measures are welcomed, commented Undersecretary of the Economy - "these are positive actions, we cannot face another summer season without taking action. The decision to control access to the Plaza is a Venetian experiment useful for application to other cities of art."

Ma a frenare sull’idea della piazza a pagamento è anche la Procuratoria, uno dei soggetti più rilevanti dell’area marciana.

"But put the brakes on the idea of paying to get into Piazza San Marco and the Basilica, one of the subjects under discussion relevant to the San Marco area.

Via libera invece al contingentamento. "La prenotazione è auspicabile perché ogni giorno in piazza è un’invasione – prosegue Tesserin – Ma prima è necessario uno studio complessivo che consenta di dire quante sono le persone in piazza in un dato momento."

"Free entrance instead of quota. Reservations are desirable because every day there is an invasion of the Piazza, said Attorney/Counsel Member - but first it's necessary to do a comprehensive study to tell how many people are in the Piazza at a given moment.

La tecnologia dovrebbe essere disponibile a breve: Corila, Università di Bologna, Telecom e Comune stanno studiando un sistema di conta-persone utilizzando i dati forniti dalle compagnie telefoniche su quanti cellulari sono presenti in un certo luogo in un certo momento. La sperimentazione c’è già stata nei giorni di Carnevale e presto arriveranno i risultati. La delibera quadro prevede poi delle azioni già avviate come il potenziamento dei vigili, limiti alle aperture dei take-away e nuove regole per il decoro.

"Technology to do this should be available shortly. University of Bologna is studying using the telephone company to determine the number of cell phones present in a given region at a given moment. We already started the experiment during Carnevale, and should have results shortly. We've also already implemented some of the plan, like hiring more police officers, limiting the new take-out food places, and passed rules to enforce proper decorum of the tourists."

Non si penalizzi in nessun modo chi dorme negli alberghi e spende nella città."

"People who sleep in a hotel and spend money in the city will not be penalized in any way."

I problemi di Venezia sono comuni alle altre città d’arte e ieri il sindaco di Firenze Dario Nardella ha chiesto «una task force istituzionale per gestire il problema del crescente flusso di turisti nelle città d’arte». «Siamo disponibili a discutere », dicono dal ministero. Nardella invece boccia i contapersone: per lui meglio aumentare le tariffe sui bus turistici, che portano orde di visitatori "mordi e fuggi."

"The problems of Venice are common to other cities of art, said Mayor Nardella of Florence, who has called for a task force to manage the growth of influx of tourists into the cities of art. "We are ready to discuss it." Instead of counting and regulating the number of visitors, he is in favor of increasing taxes on the tourist buses in Florence, because they just bring hordes of people who "bite and run." (Tourists who take a bite out of the city and run, without contributing anything to its economy).

Overall, changes are happening. As always, they will be slow, but the current situation in Venice and Florence is unsustainable, and people now realize that.

obscure2k

Very interesting article, but at the end of the day, while well-intentioned, this will be studied and studied by one commission after another. As you said, Perche, this will be a slow process.

Palal

You declare the whole site a monument and limit the number of visitors. You can also charge for access (looks like they're not doing that now) as you would for any other monument, giving locals and hotel-stayers a 100% discount. This does make the local population part of the spectacle, but that's how it is nowadays anyway in Venice or in other highly-touristic places.

rickg523

Or you just limit the number of cruise ships allowed to visit per day based on passenger count. One or two behemoths a day, maybe four or five smaller ships. 10000 cruisers a day max.
And for heaven's sake, ban the damned things from the Guidecca. What other city would even let an apartment complex on wheels roll down Main Street?

Perche

In the article where I first saw this, most of the measures had passed, with the exception of the ban on opening new fast food and take-away places in Venice. They focused on pizza and shish kebab.

The failure to ban new pizza and kebab places was characterized by the city as a, "lost opportunity." Florence has already passed a ban against the opening of places serving inauthentic food in the historic center. Venice re-voted on the bill, and this time it passed.

http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/d...y-venezia.html

A few excerpts, "We are very satisfied that this measure against further degradation of Venice has passed."

"We are cutting off the places that result in improvised camping and picnics in Piazza San Marco."

"No more, we are stopping the activities that are not compatible with our need to take care of the culture of Venice."

"Venezia, approvata in Consiglio comunale la delibera contro le nuove aperture di attività take away. Il provvedimento vieta nuove aperture di attività di vendita e di produzione di prodotti alimentari destinati all'asporto e al consumo su pubblica via, escluse le gelaterie artigianali.“

"The city approved a law against any new take-away places, or places where they sell food that you can eat out in public, with the exception of artisanal gelato."

As for artisanal gelato, that's going to be hard to find. There is a person credited with recently restoring gelato culture in Rome, Claudio Torce. He only found about 25 places in Rome that were still making gelato, and not selling ice cream as gelato. Gelato is not ice cream. Gelato will spoil in 2-3 days. Ice cream is full of chemicals that keep things stabilized for 6 months to a year. Gelato is made out of just fresh fruit or other flavors and milk (not cream), and it doesn't keep beyond a few days. In all of Rome, the number of places that were still selling gelato was found to be in the 20's. Luckily, that is changing. In Venice, I think there are only two places left that still sell real gelato.

Banning pizza was easy, because Venice and pizza don't go together. It takes a super hot wood burning oven to make pizza, just like it takes a super hot heat source to make Venetian glass. Houses in Venice have a wooden sub-structure and they would light up like a match, like La Fenice, if there is a pizza or glass burning oven inside.

For that reason, Venice banned pizza many years ago, and sentenced all glass blowers to lifelong exile on the island of Murano, under penalty of death. Pizza was only allowed back into Venice under strict controls maybe 40-50 years ago, mostly as a frozen food, reheated or microwaved. Banning take-out pizza was easy because in Venice people don't eat pizza.

The article says, "Insomma: kebab, panini e piadine "mordi e fuggi" non fanno l'interesse di Venezia,“ In summary, kabab and sandwich places for people who come to the city to "bite and run" is not in the interest of Venice.

Banning kebab and pizza seems like moving in the right direction, although it will probably be implemented too slowly to make the intended difference. But who knows?

mkjr

thanks for the update. BTW, sent you a PM. not sure if you were able to help with my question. i will have to go back to the thread you posted in about the authentic gelato places in Rome/.

rickg523

Article from today's Guardian:
Venice world heritage status under threat

This is a sad story..Not a pretty picture....

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