Perche

Exactly! Many people have returned from Italy and said they learned that Italians value food so much that they eat an appetizer, a primi first course, a secondo second course, then dessert. People don't eat that way in Italy except on a major holiday where extended family gets together like Christmas, or if a child just graduated from the university. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of an American ordering an appetizer, then a whole plate of pasta, and then a fish or a steak, and then a desert, thinking that's what they had to do because that's the way Italians eat!

The person doing the cooking at home is almost always the wife. For dinner she is going to say, "tonight we are having pasta," that's it. The next night, "we are having soup." The next night, "we are having a risotto." Every now and then she says, "we are eating out." Women in Italy, at least the ones that I know, are not at home wearing an apron and stirring a pot of pasta while waiting for the husband and kids to come home so they can serve them a four course meal. They are usually somewhere else working at a job to bring in extra income.

If a local does want to go out to eat they are not going to Piazza Navona, the Pantheon, the Spanish Steps, the Fountain of Trevi, or the Colosseum. However, even in restaurants in those areas the main language you are going to hear is still Italian, because many tourists are from Italy. A local will just go downstairs, and eat at their local place. It doesn't speak so much to the quality of the food, as it does to the proximity and economy of the restaurant. The average local, except on special occasions, just wants a decent, convenient meal at a price that doesn't make them feel guilty when they get the check.

About three years ago I was at a party in SF (a sophisticated party, above my league), and was mingling. I mentioned that I just returned from Rome. A man responded that he spent a weekend there and, "ate with the locals." He said he knew that because when he walked in they all greeted him with "ciao," and before leaving the waiter told him to call him if he ever came back to Italy, and all of the waiters said "ciao" to him when he left.

The place where he ate is one of the most notorious, high-priced tourist rip-off places in all of Rome. In my opinion, people should be careful about concluding which restaurant is frequented by locals on the basis of perceived language. The word, "ciao" is a red flag that means you should leave. Even a bartender in a bad neighborhood would not say "ciao" to a new customer. One of the few exceptions would be an older bartender or waiter speaking to a youngster.

I also think you learned an important thing; never ask someone at a hotel for a recommendation about where to eat. The concierge knows you are a tourist, and will send you to a place where they think tourists will be pleased, which usually means terrible. Even worse is if someone says, "Tell them that Marco from the hotel sent you, and they will take care of you." That's the kiss of death for a good meal. He is telling you this so that the restaurant takes care of Marco, not you, by giving him free coffee, or an occasional free meal for the referrals.

PWMTrav

That's a decent rule of thumb, but not an absolute. A friend of mine owns a restaurant 3 blocks from the Colosseum, and while he gets plenty of tourists, there are strong local lunch and dinner crowds.

My guideline, which admittedly requires some advance observation, is to see which places are still full at 3pm (for lunch) and 10pm (for dinner). Those are more likely to be good, and you can go ahead and make a reservation. Of course, I tend to go in the offseason when calling the day before for a reservation the next day is usually fine, but that's my method in the absence of solid recommendations.

I still need to write up my recs from the trips to Rome and Florence that I just finished, but we were able to find some good places in touristy areas that I need to mention on FT. They are the exception, for sure, no argument from me.

Perche

I agree, it's a rule of thumb. Two weeks ago I ate lunch at Taverna dei Fori Imperiali in Rome. I only called an hour ahead for the reservation. It was so delicious. If you have a decent throwing arm you could throw a rock right into the Forum from there. I would bet that not even 1 in 10,000 of the thousands of tourists who pass by the Forum will ever see it because it's on the other side of a knoll. You can definitely eat well near tourist sites, but you have to get some decent information about where to go. There is so much wrong with the sign below.

PWMTrav

^ Yup, although I've learned that English menus are not always a fatal flaw, you can look at those prices and figure out you're getting worked.

You know what I did notice in Rome recently, though, was "Service Not Included" being written in English on the bottom of the bill in many restaurants. Now, I don't know if it's because we were clearly American (and traveling with another family that speaks zero Italian), but it was at the bottom of the bill in a few places we ate in Rome - and always only in English, not Italian, not any other language. First time I'd ever encountered that. No coperto or servizio (the latter of which is a total tourist tax anyway) on the menu or bill, just that language. What I decided to do was leave 1.50 per adult, which in my mind is the average coperto in an Italian city. I know they were soliciting tips, which I didn't like, but how are you supposed to handle that in Rome, presuming it isn't normal?

And before you ask, it was near the Spanish Steps and I did not pick the restaurant

Perche

If it says, "service not included," I still don't leave anything unless the person doing the service was exceptional, in which case I leave a few euros on the table.

The "coperto" was a rip-off that restaurants started adding on to cover the so-called cost of cleaning the table cloth, the napkins, etc. When people started to complain they passed a law in the 1990's that banned that practice. In response restaurants started claiming that, "the coperto is to cover the cost of the bread."

People started complaining even more, saying, "I didn't order the bread!" In Italy, bread is not eaten before a meal, is not dipped in olive oil or balsamic vinegar, and is not spread with butter for you to eat while waiting for the meal. After eating a basket of bread and butter a typical Italian would say, "I'm not hungry anymore," and would walk out.

Roman restaurants then dug themselves into an even deeper hole by changing the name to "servizio," so that people would think that it meant a tip for the waiters' service. No money goes to the waiters because there is no tipping in Italy. It's OK to leave a couple of euros here and there that the waitstaff will find on your table, but everything else goes to the owner.

The coperto/servizio thing ran up so many complaints that around 2006 Rome passed a law saying that you cannot charge any of these things unless it is clearly stated on the menu so that people will know the full cost before they order. Even that didn't work, so around 2011 they passed a law that specifically forbids restaurants from adding any costs to a meal. No tip, no service, no coperto. It is all against the law unless it is stated on the menu that you will have to pay it.

Restaurant owners started yet another run-around. On the bottom of the menu many places started writing, "service not included," hoping to guilt-trip Americans into leaving extra money for the owner.

The only way that your server is going to get anything beyond their salary is if you leave a few euros on the table that they can pocket. Unlike wait staff in the USA who receive less than minimum wage, a waiter in Italy receives a full salary, benefits, health care, and does not expect to be tipped.

In the USA when you ask for the check there are always separate lines for the meal, the tax, and the tip. In Italy, look at the receipt: there is no line for a tip.

When they ask for a tip on the menu by adding some fine print "service not included," that's a red flag. Zero is the proper amount, unless the service was exceptional. For a party of five, leaving 7.50 euros is a huge tip, and is even generous for a 200 euro restaurant bill.

PWMTrav

Yeah, I figured I was getting worked there. I left 6 euro, there were 4 adults - I just dug up the receipt and that turned out to be the change on a 94 euro bill. I basically paid what I would have on coperto in Florence, where it is common and normal, but after we left I was convinced I shouldn't have left anything. Ah well, live and learn.

iapetus

<sheepishly raises hand>I will do this sometimes (excepting the dessert part).</sheepishly raises hand> That said, I have also noticed that I've stopped doing all three quite as much. Between the antipasto, primo and secondo, I will often just order two of the three (but never primo and secondo).

Well, I'd like to think that I had my inclinations justified. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask the concierge for precisely the reasons you mention. On that particular evening, I was just going where everyone else was; I fell victim to "group think".


Where I get tripped up is being with other Americans who always seem to want to get a restaurant meal at non-meal times. I need to get better at explaining to people why this doesn't work.


I've been to the Taverna a couple of times. It may not be as hard to find as you suggest. But that sign isn't from there, is it? While I can't say for certain that that sign would have driven me away, I'm pretty sure that I would have been bothered by not seeing a sign in Italian, too. Of course, that just circles back to the point about hearing (seeing) Italian and assumptions about how authentic a place is ...


I will also admit to having a very hard time, as an American, avoiding the guilt that comes of not tipping. That said, in Italy that never amounts to doing anything more than leaving a rounded-up bill for me. And I'll also note that I have no guilt about just paying the bill when I go to the winebar/restaurant that I frequent; there's no line for a tip, and I know they don't expect one.


So, this varies between Rome and Florence?!!? I did not realize this. That's confusing. I give up on being able to keep that all straight.

PWMTrav

iapetus:

I gave up on making my quote tags match

The non-meal times thing is always a difficult one. My meals tend to line up during when Italians eat, since my parents - having just come over relatively recently - usually put dinner on the table around 7, and lunch was anytime after noon that we were ready to eat. But my 4 year old thinks differently! She's ready for dinner at 4:30 and bed around 8. So until she gets adjusted the first couple days in Italy (she's an night owl if you let her be one, so she does adjust), we tend to have a heavy snack on the early side and then dinner at the apartment. I've been to Florence enough that I know of some good places that are open through the day, but those are the exception - the better restaurants normally close from 3-7. This is a long way to say that the Mercato Centrale (in Rome or Florence) is a great option for a meal during off hours when you don't want to sacrifice quality. We lean on those pretty heavily early on in our trips.

As to the different charges between cities, yup! There isn't a blanket rule across Italy that says you're getting ripped off if you see X on the bill. The only thing that appears fairly uniform is that all charges/fees are disclosed up front (on the menu).

In Rome, as Perche pointed out, these charges are mostly not allowed. I didn't know that until after my most recent visit!

In Florence, you shouldn't see a service charge (servizio), but a cover (coperto) of 1.50 to 2.00 euro per head is normal - true locals may not see it sometimes, but for visitors, Italians or not, it's fairly uniform. FWIW, I don't mind it one bit, because even in the most touristy places I've fallen into there, I have never once gotten a suggestion of any kind that we should tip. Most reputable places won't add the coperto for small children.

mkjr

Much appreciated!!

Perche

That sign was definitely not from Taverna, which is an excellent place. There is a lot on the sign I did post beside it being in English that should make anyone avoid eating there.

I posted it to show that the secret that so many restaurants serve frozen food that some now publicly announce that their food is not frozen. Much of the "authentic Italian food" eaten in popular places most people generally now recognize as frozen food that comes from Costco-like factories made in Germany or the U.K., and sold to tourists who think it's the best Italian food because they ever had, and they were eating like a local.

On the menu where it says lasagna bolognese, that's another sign. First of all, it's not called lasagna, it is lasagne. Then there is the roast beef salad. In Italian restaurants in the USA they ask if, "you want chicken or salad on top of the salad for an $4 extra." In Italy, asking for meat or fish on top of a salad would in the USA asking for a scoop of ice cream on top of your hamburger. They don't go together. You can get a whole lot from on reading the signs.

I've been in Venice for the last few days. Yesterday I passed a restaurant with a sign outside that advertised authentic Neapolitan Pizza. Napolitano pizza has to be made in a wood fired oven. It's the only type of oven that can get to over 1200F and cook the pizza in just 60-90 seconds, making it crunchy on the outside, chewy in the middle. Hundreds of years ago Venice passed a law outlawing these wood fired ovens, under pain of death. The law still stands, but without the death penalty. There's no Napolitano pizza here. Paying attention to signs is not enough, but is a good start.

For sure, I wouldn't use an app such as, "Spotted by locals."

Perche

The 2016 Venice visitor numbers are in. I think it sheds some light on when people said they were, "eating with the locals, because everyone was speaking Italian." The average person on vacation doesn't go on an international trip, especially Italians, given their economy. The people speaking Italian in the restaurants are tourists too, who have as little of an idea of where to eat as you do.

In today's Corriere del Veneto, "Newl Record for Tourism to Venice in 2016." http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it...57618443.shtml

Gli arrivi sono stati 17.856.567, con 11.525.916 stranieri e 6.330.651 italiani.

The arrivals were 17,856,567, with 11,525,916 foreigners, and 6,330,651 Italians.

So, over a third of the tourists ing Venice are from Italy. It's the same or higher for other cities. The locals are almost always eating at home, so when someone says, "I had great food because there were no tourists, just locals," chances are you were surrounded by Italian tourists who had no idea where to eat.

Unfortunately a whopping 50% of visitors to Venice just go to San Marco Square and the Rialto Bridge to take a selfie, then go back to the cruise ship and say they've been to Venice.

kasmersensei

I think you need to try and use concierges differently. The few times we have used one, we asked for local restaurant recommendations, and he or she didn't say to mention the concierge's name when entering the restaurant.
We also have asked shop owners in the local area. We specifically mentioned we are not looking for high priced places (which may have great food or simply nice views), but rather places that are good value for the money, and generally mid priced.

As to eating with locals, yes, it can be truly hard to know how local people really are (i.e. within the country, the region, town, etc).

PWMTrav

I'm guilty of feeding the idea that concierges give bad or biased advice here, so let me clarify a bit. In Italy, they're very inconsistent. I think tourists like us fairly expect that someone called a concierge knows their stuff, but it's just not always the case. In my experience, it's too frequently not the case, so I've written them off as a source.

Shop owners have been a great source of recommendations for me. Especially those that deal in food or wine already.

obscure2k

Oh, please don't write them all off as a source. I have known concierges who have worked hard to earn those "golden keys." The ones i have known personally take great pride in their knowledge of good venues for dining. They are looking to please their guests. On our last trip to Venice, the concierge in our hotel recommended a nearby restaurant and it is now one of our favorite restaurants in Venice.

PWMTrav

The problem is I have no way of knowing their reliability until after the fact. At least when it comes to Italy, I don't rely on them for anything subjective.