PWMTrav

Just keep in mind Perche loves Venice as much as I love Florence, possibly more It's good advice, though. If there's anything you're best off dropping it'd be Amalfi, also for the reason that it adds a lot of extra distance/travel time.

I don't think you should skip Venice - it's not my favorite place in Italy (Florence is), but it's one of the unique places on the planet and the history is pretty amazing. Keep what Perche said in mind about getting out to some of the neighborhoods away from San Marco. As you get closer to Piazza San Marco, you can walk blocks and not pass another Italian.

The thing about visiting Venice, Florence, Rome on your first trip, too, is that the food varies quite a bit between the three. And it'll all be fairly different than the Italian food you get in the US, since a lot of it here has Southern Italian roots (although it's diverged quite a bit itself, to the point where I'd consider Italian-American its own cuisine). The wine is different, too, but I'm pretty ignorant about wine and rarely meet a bottle I don't like

Perche

^You're right. I'm heading there tomorrow to catch the last day of the Biennale.

I went to Chianti in the summer about three years ago. A small town, Greve, is what i found to be best, but I was stuck in a traffic jam outside of even the smallest towns as if I was in LA, and this is rural Tuscany! Nothing but tourist buses. After driving into the towns and not being able to find parking I'd just keep driving on, and usually park on the side of the road about a mile outside and walk back in.

Tuscany was nothing special in Italy until their tourist bureau, very wisely, decided to spend many many millions of euros to advertise it as the quintessence of Italy. When I went there 25 years ago it was a rural, untouched, unspoiled place, like being in Le Marche or Abruzzo.

Now, Tuscany has joined "theme park Italy." It's like when I mention to someone that I lived in Venice off and on for 5 years, and people say, "Oh, I went to the Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas."

I'm for Slow Food, I'm for real Italy, not what the tourism industry manages to put together. Chianti is so full of tourists that I couldn't even speak Italian when I was there. I'm an Italian citizen. I've taught college in post-graduate level courses in Italy. But in Tuscany I'd go into a store or restaurant and ask a question in Italian, and they'd answer me in english that I could barely understand. I'd say, "why are you talking to me in english, when I am speaking to you in Italian?" The response was always, "Sorry, I just assumed you were American or British."

I stay away from it. There are great places in Tuscany, but Chianti is dreadful. Everyone knows the name because of the wine, so every tourist goes there. They have a well-developed tourist oriented website.

If you go to a restaurant, everyone, from the people all around you to the waiters, will be speaking English. Italian is hardly ever spoken there, so there's no sense of travel or adventure. It is tourism "light." I won't even drink Chianti anymore, because Chianti is so touristy. I walk right by those bottles on the shelf in the wine shop, even though I know I'm passing up some good stuff.

Piemonte is like Tuscany used to be, but without the fad. Except that it is much prettier, has better food, and no one would even think of trying to compare a Tuscan wine like Chianti with the a Barolo from Piemonte.

Like Hollande says in the NYT article, Basilicata and Puglia are better if you want to get a taste of Italy, but the south is like going back 25 years. It has many more transportation inconveniences, but it is real Italy, and not theme park Italy where everyone around you is speaking English.

To me, Tuscany is like what Yogi Berra said years ago about the Copacabana night club, "It's too crowded. Nobody goes there anymore." It's too crowded with tourists since they launched their massive advertising campaign 20 years ago, and started subsidizing books and movies about itself.

If you want to experience Italy, I'd go to where Tuscany isn't. And if you want to go to Tuscany, I'd not go to Chianti because of all of the towns, that's where the most tourists will be, because of the name and the advertising on the internet. As I said, I won't even drink a glass of chianti anymore, because I've seen how touristy the region is, and I can't give it my trust. People who really want to experience Italy are starting to move beyond the Tuscan Tourist Trap.

Amalfi is great, and I've written about that on this thread. But trading Venice for Amalfi and Chianti?

The only secret to Venice is to stay away from Piazza San Marco, Ponte Rialto, and Santa Croce, the train station district. It is not called, "La Serenissima" or most serene, for nothing. Just stay away from the tourist areas during the day time, and you will be transported to another century. You can do the same for Tuscany if you dive deeply into certain areas. You cannot do it by relying on travel bureau websites and TripAdvisor. TripAdvisor will just steer you to the cheesiest, least authentic places - the places most people go to.

detroit1010

Again really appreciate your thoughts.

We're going to do 3 nights at each: Amalfi --> Rome --> Florence --> Venice. We'll fly from USA to Naples (1 stop over) and then direct out of Venice.

Given your knowledge of Venice, any recommendations for hotels and/or best neighborhood to stay in to keep away from the crowds?

Up In The Air

If you don't like the heat I definitely would not recommend Turin in August. It can get very hot (90's) with horribly oppressive humidity and frequent summer storms (that 'clear the air' for five minutes). The city will be deserted with the majority of restaurants closed for August. However, it is a beautiful city, and not on the mass tourism trail.

ejong

Perchè - have you expounded somewhere as to the ideal way to experience Venice and where to stay? We were just there for three nights and I feel like we kind of squandered our experience, partly due to rain/acqua alta/trip fatigue. I feel like I will have to go back and next time want to do it right!

That said, @detroit1010, you MUST include Venice because, as everyone told me before I went "there is no place like it". And even if you don't see it perfectly, you must see it!

We just spent three weeks in Italy and I am as surprised as anyone to say that I think my favorite memory is of Rome. We were there six days and of all the places I visited it is the first place to which I would return. (I am blogging about/reliving my trip at www.polloplayer.com and have currently gotten as far as Tuscany if you want to see a personal trip report).

Two nights in Tuscany will give you the memory of having driven through it but everything there seems so spread out I am not sure you would experience much of it in that short of a time. My favorite day trip outside of Rome was Orvieto in Umbria.

Florence is a must-see but gosh it was awash in tourists (pot, kettle, right?) and wearying due to that but it just has to be done if you want to go to the Uffizi and the Accademia and the Duomo.

I envy you your upcoming two weeks in Italy. I wish I could go back and start my trip all over again!

detroit1010

Aside from the things out of your control that you highlighted above, why do you feel like you squandered your time there? Phrased differently, what would you look for (or look out for) in planning a few nights in Venice? And what about in terms of a hotel/neighborhood?

Perche

I'd respectfully disagree. In 2013 I lived in Torino and was at the University in summer school, June and July, and the weather was spectacular. Remember, Italy is hot in the summer.

Torino is up near the mountains bordering the French Alps. It's hot, but it's not humid or messy hot, like Houston or New Orleans. You don't need to take a shower after every time you go out. It's just normal Italy.

In comparison, Venice is suffocating in the summer. Torino is hot, but with fresh air. Rome is suffering with heat in the summer. Not Torino. And for some reason, although it's farther south, the summer is very tolerable with nice tee shirt weather in Napoli in August, probably because of the seaside location.

In Torino in June and July the students kept telling me, "you have to buy bermudas," which is the Italian name for short pants. I didn't, I mainly had long pants and jeans. I spent the summer in Torino not needing shorts. It was definitely hotter in Naples, where I finally did go to a store and buy "bermudas,"about 3 for 12 euros.

August is completely different. Italians have Ferragosto, a holiday, and it starts on August 15th. It's supposed to be a weekend holiday, but most extend it to the end of the month. If the 15th falls on Tuesday, you can bet that everyone will back start it to the previous Friday. You really don't want to be in Italy in August at that time.

The only exceptions are Rome, Florence, and Venice. Those are tourist cities. They stay open. The locals in those cities take January off instead, when there are not tourists, against the Ferragosto tradition. But the weather in Venice is too brutal for me in August. I wouldn't do it. I haven't been to Florence in August, but I suspect it's the same. I've been to Rome in August a lot, and it's a big city with a lot of options. Not any different from being in LA, NYC, or Miami in August. Doable.

Torino in August is not hot. it's just that like all non-touristy cities, it's empty. everyone takes August off to head to the mountains or to the beach. I spent August 2014 in Torino, August 2013 in Modena, and I almost starved in Modena, as everything was closed. You have way, way many more options in Torino. But it's still half empty and closed down - just the way ALL of Italy is, except for tourist places like Sorrento, etc.

Torino is amazing. I can't wait to spend another summer there. The weather is not an issue, just being there after August 15th is, and that pertains to all non-touristy cities. And Torino is the fourth largest city in Italy, and is decidedly non-touristy. Spending June and July in Torino is paradise. It's at the base of the Alps, so if you can't stand that weather, you are pretty weather intolerant. It's can be hot, but the evenings are cool, there are two rivers running through it where it is always nice.

Torino is real Italy.

Up In The Air

I guess we should respectfully agree to disagree. I worked in Torino from 1987 to 2003 and now visit once or twice a month. Let's just say that it can get hot (into the 90's) and very humid in August – the first two weeks of August 2015 being an example of this.

detroit1010

After doing some reading I'm thinking of staying in the Dorsoduro neighborhood. Seems like it's pretty close to the action but still removed. We're mostly interested in just wandering around, eating good food, exploring the sights. Museums and churches are less important to us. Would this be a good choice? If so, any specific hotel recommendations would be great!

ejong

I had a lunch reservation at Cipriano the Tuesday we were there, but between the rain and the acqua alta (and some decrepitude issues) we were not able to get over to the boat launch. My first thought was to go to the Guggenheim instead or Ca' Rezzonico - turned out BOTH are closed on Tuesdays. So then we thought we would walk to the Fenice opera house but managed first to get lost and then turned back by the acqua alta and then when we went later after the tide receded, it was temporarily closed for a private tour. So that day was kind of a wash in many ways.

Also, a huge mistake we initially made was to take a vaporetto from the train station instead of a water taxi. And the wrong vaporetto line, at that. We ended up at a dock far from our hotel and at the mercy of a cagey Venetian porter who charged us a fortune to wheel our luggage through the streets.

We stayed on the Grand Canal and that was absolutely lovely and perhaps the right decision for a first trip, but the crush of tourists and commerce made me long to see Venice from a different perspective. What I would give for a house swap...

Perche

Dorsoduro, in most parts is fine, just not too near the Piazzale Roma, and not too near the Guggenheim Museum or the Accademia Bridge. Castello is great. I'm in an apartment there right now. Some parts of Canareggio are wonderful. By that I mean not touristy, as long as you don't stay in any part near Piazza San Marco.

When aqua alta comes it is forecasted, so you needn't be surprised. Just buy some shoe covers that go up to your knees, which are sold everywhere, and get on with your day. If not, just go to a restaurant and get a cup of coffee and relax. It only lasts for an hour or so.

It's a mistake to stay at the Cipriano if you're not George Clooney, because the Cipriano is not in Venice. Technically from a governmental perspective it is, but it's a boat ride away from Venice. You're at the mercy of their boat taking you back and forth across the bay to get to the actual city of Venice. It's probably the most inconvenient place to be.

La Fenice has tours almost every day. They're not really private tours. You just have to get a 10 euro ticket, show up at the right time, and you're part of the private tour. There is a special tour for groups of 12 or more that includes some food and drink in a private salon. You can join that too. You can always do the 10 euro self-guided audio tour.

The Grand Canal is lovely, but best seen from a vaporetto, not by staying there. As you said, there is a "crush of tourists," that puts a real damper on it, unless you have a very exclusive canal side view room.

I bet the cost of the vaporetto and the porter was less than half of what a water taxi would have cost.

Annalisa12

I'm looking at going in June too so thanks to everyone for their advice to the OP. I found it all helpful too.

PWMTrav

For the comments about a house swap, have you considered finding an AirBNB and doing that, or renting an apartment on HomeAway/VRBO?

One segment that I wish would catch on a bit more is the concept of an Apart-Hotel. It's basically an apartment building with a small reception desk, a common area or two, and light housekeeping services, priced nightly. Granduomo, which I recommend tirelessly to people in this forum going to Florence, is a good example. There the desk is staffed until about 8pm, and is otherwise keypad and key entry. They do housekeeping in the morning and also deliver some breakfast breads and stock your fridge with a few items (milk, yogurt, etc). Beyond that, no restaurant, no spa, you take the elevator down and are 10 steps from the street.

Then again, AirBNB/VRBO using a professional property manager is pretty similar to an apart-hotel. Not a bad way to experience a place. It solved the problem I always had, where I always like going to markets and grocery stores in new places, but could never buy anything and make it.

detroit1010

As I move along in planning this trip, I have one more question that I was hoping to get input on. We've decided after taking the train from Rome to Florence that we'd like to stay in the Tuscan countryside as opposed to Florence.

I've read a lot of nightmare stories about people renting cars by the train station in Florence in terms of trying to stay out of the ZTLs and/or getting multiple fines months later. A common recommendation is to rent a car from the airport as opposed to near the train station.

It seems that the trip from the train station to the airport is not terribly far (~15 minutes). I'm therefore wondering if we are totally crazy in undertaking the following series of events in the same morning:

Rome to Florence train --> taxi from train station to airport --> drive from airport to Tuscany

Conversely if there is another easier way I'm missing I'd love to hear it!

KLouis

There's also a bus leaving right in front of SMN to the airport, every 30 minutes. Much cheaper and almost as fast as a cab.