Out of Biz airline standby policy
Dec 3, 2005, 10:15 pm
#16
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Thanks HeathrowGuy!!!
Well we know from question 19 below that we are fine with e-tickets if you want to be safe you can bring a copy of your credit card statement to prove they billed you. I will be flying Indy on the 19th then again on the 26th and the 29th. When I am at the airport on the 19th I will request a copy of my confirmation on airline card stock.
In response to Auracon, I will continue as always to book my flight on the cheapest carrier. So, now i have some insurance if that happens to be indy that i don't have to worry about getting in trouble or worse getting stuck in another city. As far as ethics go, it is unethical for an airline to sell tickets for flights that they don't expect to be around to serve.
Question 19: Under section 145, can an air carrier refuse to transport an otherwise qualified passenger ticketed by a bankrupt air carrier on the basis that the passenger was issued an “e-ticket” for the bankrupt carrier’s flight?
Answer 19: No. However, the carrier can request reasonable proof that the passenger purchased a ticket. As stated in our prior notices, reasonable proof of purchase could be receipts and printed itineraries.
Well we know from question 19 below that we are fine with e-tickets if you want to be safe you can bring a copy of your credit card statement to prove they billed you. I will be flying Indy on the 19th then again on the 26th and the 29th. When I am at the airport on the 19th I will request a copy of my confirmation on airline card stock.
In response to Auracon, I will continue as always to book my flight on the cheapest carrier. So, now i have some insurance if that happens to be indy that i don't have to worry about getting in trouble or worse getting stuck in another city. As far as ethics go, it is unethical for an airline to sell tickets for flights that they don't expect to be around to serve.
Question 19: Under section 145, can an air carrier refuse to transport an otherwise qualified passenger ticketed by a bankrupt air carrier on the basis that the passenger was issued an “e-ticket” for the bankrupt carrier’s flight?
Answer 19: No. However, the carrier can request reasonable proof that the passenger purchased a ticket. As stated in our prior notices, reasonable proof of purchase could be receipts and printed itineraries.
Dec 3, 2005, 10:24 pm
#17
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Thanks HeathrowGuy!!!
Well we know from question 19 below that we are fine with e-tickets if you want to be safe you can bring a copy of your credit card statement to prove they billed you. I will be flying Indy on the 19th then again on the 26th and the 29th. When I am at the airport on the 19th I will request a copy of my confirmation on airline card stock.
In response to Auracon, I will continue as always to book my flight on the cheapest carrier. So, now i have some insurance if that happens to be indy that i don't have to worry about getting in trouble or worse getting stuck in another city. As far as ethics go, it is unethical for an airline to sell tickets for flights that they don't expect to be around to serve.
Question 19: Under section 145, can an air carrier refuse to transport an otherwise qualified passenger ticketed by a bankrupt air carrier on the basis that the passenger was issued an “e-ticket” for the bankrupt carrier’s flight?
Answer 19: No. However, the carrier can request reasonable proof that the passenger purchased a ticket. As stated in our prior notices, reasonable proof of purchase could be receipts and printed itineraries.
Well we know from question 19 below that we are fine with e-tickets if you want to be safe you can bring a copy of your credit card statement to prove they billed you. I will be flying Indy on the 19th then again on the 26th and the 29th. When I am at the airport on the 19th I will request a copy of my confirmation on airline card stock.
In response to Auracon, I will continue as always to book my flight on the cheapest carrier. So, now i have some insurance if that happens to be indy that i don't have to worry about getting in trouble or worse getting stuck in another city. As far as ethics go, it is unethical for an airline to sell tickets for flights that they don't expect to be around to serve.
Question 19: Under section 145, can an air carrier refuse to transport an otherwise qualified passenger ticketed by a bankrupt air carrier on the basis that the passenger was issued an “e-ticket” for the bankrupt carrier’s flight?
Answer 19: No. However, the carrier can request reasonable proof that the passenger purchased a ticket. As stated in our prior notices, reasonable proof of purchase could be receipts and printed itineraries.
I have nothing against passengers booking with the cheapest carrier option. Indeed, I do it all the time as well. However, I AM against the idea of utilizing other airlines' courtesy and cooperation in honoring the tickets to their personal benefits only. You also specifically mentioned that you would consider this as "the opportunity of a lifetime" [to save money for yourself, i presume,]. I find that unethical. The fact that Independence Air is selling tickets for which they may not be able to actually provide service is unethical DOES NOT make it ethical for you to take advantage of other airlines' courtesy.
Dec 3, 2005, 10:37 pm
#18
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an 'airline courtesy' is bumping someone on a grievance into first class. Carrying out a law is not a 'courtesy.' I don't consider the safety checks an airline preforms to be a 'courtesy' to my safety but a part of doing business. By deal of the lifetime i meant that if the credit card companies refund my indy fair AND another airline honors the ticket, it turns out to be the deal of a lifetime. There is nothing unethical about any part of that. You can disagree with the law but if you do your best avenue to complain is calling your senators or congressperson.
Dec 3, 2005, 10:40 pm
#19
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
an 'airline courtesy' is bumping someone on a grievance into first class. Carrying out a law is not a 'courtesy.' I don't consider the safety checks an airline preforms to be a 'courtesy' to my safety but a part of doing business. By deal of the lifetime i meant that if the credit card companies refund my indy fair AND another airline honors the ticket, it turns out to be the deal of a lifetime. There is nothing unethical about any part of that. You can disagree with the law but if you do your best avenue to complain is calling your senators or congressperson.
Dec 4, 2005, 1:35 am
#20
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
an 'airline courtesy' is bumping someone on a grievance into first class. Carrying out a law is not a 'courtesy.' I don't consider the safety checks an airline preforms to be a 'courtesy' to my safety but a part of doing business. By deal of the lifetime i meant that if the credit card companies refund my indy fair AND another airline honors the ticket, it turns out to be the deal of a lifetime. There is nothing unethical about any part of that. You can disagree with the law but if you do your best avenue to complain is calling your senators or congressperson.
I won't go into the what-ifs about snafus on your travel day. There are SO many things that could go wrong with your plans that you never even think about as a revenue pax. Your standby priority will probably be just above the employees, or at the bottom of all revenue pax. Doesn't so bad because just how many people can there be trying to standby, right? Wait until the first flight of the morning cancels and screws up the flights for the rest of the day. It's even worse if you're on a connection. If you're on the last flight and it cancels for whatever reason, the airline WILL NOT do ANYTHING for you. At all.
If you want to ahead and buy 20 tickets because you think flying standby for $100 r/t trip is the deal of a life time, go ahead. Nobody can stop you. But you try it enough, you're bound to run into problems sooner or later, and then you'll be here complaining about how you got "screwed over." You didn't. What you didn't understand is that the law provides you protection or a safety net in case an airline goes out of business two days prior to the day you were supposed to travel and you can't afford to buy a walkup ticket somewhere else. Safety nets break.
Dec 4, 2005, 2:52 am
#21
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Heathrow Guy,
Thanks for quoting the law, but I have a question for you:
In section 8404 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (P.L. 108-458 (Dec. 17, 2004)), Congress renewed the obligation of air carriers under section 145 of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (P.L. 107-71, 115 Stat.645 (Nov. 19, 2001) (“Act”)) to provide transportation to passengers of airlines that have ceased operations due to insolvency or bankruptcy. As amended, section 145 states in pertinent part:
(a) … Each air carrier that provides scheduled air transportation on a route shall provide, to the extent practicable, air transportation to passengers ticketed for air transportation on that route by any other air carrier that suspends, interrupts, or discontinues air passenger service on the route by reason of insolvency or bankruptcy of the other air carrier.
(b) … An air carrier is not required to provide air transportation under subsection (a) to a passenger unless that passenger makes alternative arrangements with the air carrier for such transportation within 60 days after the date on which that passenger’s air transportation was suspended, interrupted, or discontinued (without regard to the originally scheduled travel date on the ticket).
(c) … This section does not apply to air transportation the suspension, interruption, or discontinuance of which occurs after November 19, 2005.
Does the bolded paragraph, paragraph (c) mean that this law is not applicable to the FlyI situation? I read it as saying this provision does not apply to airlines that go out of business after Novermber 19, 2005. As we've passed that date, it would not apply to the potential FlyI situation, right?
Thanks for quoting the law, but I have a question for you:
In section 8404 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (P.L. 108-458 (Dec. 17, 2004)), Congress renewed the obligation of air carriers under section 145 of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (P.L. 107-71, 115 Stat.645 (Nov. 19, 2001) (“Act”)) to provide transportation to passengers of airlines that have ceased operations due to insolvency or bankruptcy. As amended, section 145 states in pertinent part:
(a) … Each air carrier that provides scheduled air transportation on a route shall provide, to the extent practicable, air transportation to passengers ticketed for air transportation on that route by any other air carrier that suspends, interrupts, or discontinues air passenger service on the route by reason of insolvency or bankruptcy of the other air carrier.
(b) … An air carrier is not required to provide air transportation under subsection (a) to a passenger unless that passenger makes alternative arrangements with the air carrier for such transportation within 60 days after the date on which that passenger’s air transportation was suspended, interrupted, or discontinued (without regard to the originally scheduled travel date on the ticket).
(c) … This section does not apply to air transportation the suspension, interruption, or discontinuance of which occurs after November 19, 2005.
Does the bolded paragraph, paragraph (c) mean that this law is not applicable to the FlyI situation? I read it as saying this provision does not apply to airlines that go out of business after Novermber 19, 2005. As we've passed that date, it would not apply to the potential FlyI situation, right?
Dec 4, 2005, 6:17 am
#22
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No, the law was extended.
Dec 4, 2005, 7:44 pm
#23
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Whats your source, I am not saying you are wrong i just want to have my ducks in line when I request a standby flight
Originally Posted by gleff
No, the law was extended.
Dec 4, 2005, 7:50 pm
#24
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Granted $100 isn't free but for a trans-con flight it is an amazing price. Also, while i may be on standby and run into a problem the discount is worth the it to me, a college student. Plus, if you get to the airport for the first flight out there is almost always at least one empty seat. If i was traveling to an important meeting i would not want to go standby, but when I am traveling somewhere to visit a friend or something like that i can sit in the airport for a few hours waiting for a flight, hey i could even read a book or watch a movie. I am saving way more than I could ever make working a job at this point in my life.
Now i am sure there is some thing I don't know about flying standby, but a vast majority of all flights I have ever been on have at least one empty seat.
Also, if you really want to exploit the system you can book a fully refundable ticket on the flight you want and cancel it at the ticket desk then request to be put on standby. By doing this you know there will be a seat. While I understand it might go to another standby pax it still improves your odds.
Now i am sure there is some thing I don't know about flying standby, but a vast majority of all flights I have ever been on have at least one empty seat.
Also, if you really want to exploit the system you can book a fully refundable ticket on the flight you want and cancel it at the ticket desk then request to be put on standby. By doing this you know there will be a seat. While I understand it might go to another standby pax it still improves your odds.
Originally Posted by DHAST
Dude, service-charged standby travel is far from the deal of a lifetime. If you think it is, great, but as somebody who knows what life on standby travel is like, I can tell you it's not the bargain you think it is. You can expect to pay the maximum fee allowed by law... why would the carrier charge you any less (that's the screw you - you booked with the competition that you asked about earlier)? That said, you're facing $100 r/t in service charges, which isn't exactly free.
I won't go into the what-ifs about snafus on your travel day. There are SO many things that could go wrong with your plans that you never even think about as a revenue pax. Your standby priority will probably be just above the employees, or at the bottom of all revenue pax. Doesn't so bad because just how many people can there be trying to standby, right? Wait until the first flight of the morning cancels and screws up the flights for the rest of the day. It's even worse if you're on a connection. If you're on the last flight and it cancels for whatever reason, the airline WILL NOT do ANYTHING for you. At all.
If you want to ahead and buy 20 tickets because you think flying standby for $100 r/t trip is the deal of a life time, go ahead. Nobody can stop you. But you try it enough, you're bound to run into problems sooner or later, and then you'll be here complaining about how you got "screwed over." You didn't. What you didn't understand is that the law provides you protection or a safety net in case an airline goes out of business two days prior to the day you were supposed to travel and you can't afford to buy a walkup ticket somewhere else. Safety nets break.
I won't go into the what-ifs about snafus on your travel day. There are SO many things that could go wrong with your plans that you never even think about as a revenue pax. Your standby priority will probably be just above the employees, or at the bottom of all revenue pax. Doesn't so bad because just how many people can there be trying to standby, right? Wait until the first flight of the morning cancels and screws up the flights for the rest of the day. It's even worse if you're on a connection. If you're on the last flight and it cancels for whatever reason, the airline WILL NOT do ANYTHING for you. At all.
If you want to ahead and buy 20 tickets because you think flying standby for $100 r/t trip is the deal of a life time, go ahead. Nobody can stop you. But you try it enough, you're bound to run into problems sooner or later, and then you'll be here complaining about how you got "screwed over." You didn't. What you didn't understand is that the law provides you protection or a safety net in case an airline goes out of business two days prior to the day you were supposed to travel and you can't afford to buy a walkup ticket somewhere else. Safety nets break.
Dec 4, 2005, 7:52 pm
#25
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
to lock a seat should i book a fullyrefundable fair on another airline. Go that airlines ticket desk and cancel the fully refundable ticket and use the new 'open seat' for my non-res reservation.
Dec 4, 2005, 7:56 pm
#26
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The only way to 'guarantee' you have a seat is to be the pilot. Other than that you might not get it if they oversell. This happened to me once and I didn't volunteer but was selected because no one wanted to take their crappy offer. Booking and canceling the fully refundable tix just improves your odds.
Originally Posted by Lehava
There is nothing that guarantees you will get that "open seat" even if you just gave up a seat. There may be others in line (in the computer system) ahead of you waiting for space.
Dec 4, 2005, 10:35 pm
#27
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Also, if you really want to exploit the system you can book a fully refundable ticket on the flight you want and cancel it at the ticket desk then request to be put on standby. By doing this you know there will be a seat. While I understand it might go to another standby pax it still improves your odds.
I'd hate to preach, but doesn't your standard of ethics say anything about such practice?
Dec 4, 2005, 11:22 pm
#28
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Granted $100 isn't free but for a trans-con flight it is an amazing price. Also, while i may be on standby and run into a problem the discount is worth the it to me, a college student. Plus, if you get to the airport for the first flight out there is almost always at least one empty seat. If i was traveling to an important meeting i would not want to go standby, but when I am traveling somewhere to visit a friend or something like that i can sit in the airport for a few hours waiting for a flight, hey i could even read a book or watch a movie. I am saving way more than I could ever make working a job at this point in my life.
Now i am sure there is some thing I don't know about flying standby, but a vast majority of all flights I have ever been on have at least one empty seat.
Also, if you really want to exploit the system you can book a fully refundable ticket on the flight you want and cancel it at the ticket desk then request to be put on standby. By doing this you know there will be a seat. While I understand it might go to another standby pax it still improves your odds.
Now i am sure there is some thing I don't know about flying standby, but a vast majority of all flights I have ever been on have at least one empty seat.
Also, if you really want to exploit the system you can book a fully refundable ticket on the flight you want and cancel it at the ticket desk then request to be put on standby. By doing this you know there will be a seat. While I understand it might go to another standby pax it still improves your odds.
From what I read, you are planning on paying FlyI, counting on them going out of business, requesting refunds from your credit card, then taking advantage of the $100 option afforded by law to get standby seats on a legacy carrier. If I am wrong up to this point, please correct me.
A problem for you (besides the ethical question involved, I am not here to preach) may be that, depending on when FlyI does completely liquidate, you may be unable to secure a refund from your card company. To my knowledge, a time limit exists in the area of 30-60 days from the PURCHASE of the ticket to collect a refund due to insolvency or similar situation, regardless of actual travel date. Therefore, I see it as you taking a very high risk of forfeiting the ticket value to FlyI and being foced to pay the copay should you wish to still travel. In my mind, it is better to buy tickets on US or UA now while they are matching FlyI's fares, know for certain that you will have a seat, and not risk an extra $100/ticket fee to travel in the future. Basically, I think there is a good possibility of you losing a good deal of money and time should you try to play the system in this manner.
Dec 5, 2005, 12:22 am
#29
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Drew, you have my plan down. To address an the 30 to 60 days issue, my card is 60 days and basically indy just has to shut down with in the next 60 days and I can request the refund. I am not so much planning on doing a lot of travel like that. All i am saying is it is an interesting way of getting cheap seats. As for the ethics, if you have a problem with the law (section 145 i think) call your senator. I really dont see anything unethical about it. The card companies don't pay indy until the flight takes off. Plus if i am flying standby on another airline they are making money by having me on the plane at $50 per flight. Which is why there is that college student x-fare program, I think its on AirTran where students can fly standby for $59.
Originally Posted by drewsnav
From what I read, you are planning on paying FlyI, counting on them going out of business, requesting refunds from your credit card, then taking advantage of the $100 option afforded by law to get standby seats on a legacy carrier. If I am wrong up to this point, please correct me.
A problem for you (besides the ethical question involved, I am not here to preach) may be that, depending on when FlyI does completely liquidate, you may be unable to secure a refund from your card company. To my knowledge, a time limit exists in the area of 30-60 days from the PURCHASE of the ticket to collect a refund due to insolvency or similar situation, regardless of actual travel date. Therefore, I see it as you taking a very high risk of forfeiting the ticket value to FlyI and being foced to pay the copay should you wish to still travel. In my mind, it is better to buy tickets on US or UA now while they are matching FlyI's fares, know for certain that you will have a seat, and not risk an extra $100/ticket fee to travel in the future. Basically, I think there is a good possibility of you losing a good deal of money and time should you try to play the system in this manner.
A problem for you (besides the ethical question involved, I am not here to preach) may be that, depending on when FlyI does completely liquidate, you may be unable to secure a refund from your card company. To my knowledge, a time limit exists in the area of 30-60 days from the PURCHASE of the ticket to collect a refund due to insolvency or similar situation, regardless of actual travel date. Therefore, I see it as you taking a very high risk of forfeiting the ticket value to FlyI and being foced to pay the copay should you wish to still travel. In my mind, it is better to buy tickets on US or UA now while they are matching FlyI's fares, know for certain that you will have a seat, and not risk an extra $100/ticket fee to travel in the future. Basically, I think there is a good possibility of you losing a good deal of money and time should you try to play the system in this manner.
Dec 5, 2005, 12:41 am
#30
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
As for the ethics, if you have a problem with the law (section 145 i think) call your senator. I really dont see anything unethical about it. The card companies don't pay indy until the flight takes off. Plus if i am flying standby on another airline they are making money by having me on the plane at $50 per flight. Which is why there is that college student x-fare program, I think its on AirTran where students can fly standby for $59.