Sep 5, 2020, 8:37 pm
Last edit by: seawolf
AMEX/MasterCard/VISA rules in regards to charging cardmember for damages
VISA Core Rules
MasterCard Transaction Processing Rules
American Express Merchant Operating Guide (US)
VISA Core Rules
5.9.8.4 - Rental Merchant Charges for Damages – Europe Region
In the Europe Region: When a rental Merchant carries out a delayed charge Transaction for charges relating to damage to a rental vehicle, the Merchant must provide the Acquirer with all of the
following:
In the Europe Region: When a rental Merchant carries out a delayed charge Transaction for charges relating to damage to a rental vehicle, the Merchant must provide the Acquirer with all of the
following:
- A copy of the rental agreement
- An estimate of the cost of the damage from an organization that can legally provide repairs
- The relevant civil authority’s accident report (if applicable)
- Documentation showing that the Cardholder has given consent that a delayed charge Transaction may be processed using the Cardholder’s Card to cover damages to a rental vehicle. This consent must be evidenced by either:
- The Cardholder’s signature on the same page as, and close to, the description of the charges that may be covered by the delayed charge Transaction
- The Cardholder’s signature on the agreement and the Cardholder’s initials on each page of the agreement, including on the same page as the description of the charges that may be covered by the delayed charge Transaction
3.12 Charges for Loss, Theft, or Damage—Mastercard POS Transactions Only
A charge for loss, theft, or damage must be processed as a separate Transaction from the underlying rental, lodging, or other Transaction. The Merchant must provide a reason for the charge and a reasonable estimate of the cost of repairs to the Cardholder. After gaining the Cardholder’s authorization of the charge and the estimated cost, the Merchant must process the Transaction as one of the following:
A charge for loss, theft, or damage must be processed as a separate Transaction from the underlying rental, lodging, or other Transaction. The Merchant must provide a reason for the charge and a reasonable estimate of the cost of repairs to the Cardholder. After gaining the Cardholder’s authorization of the charge and the estimated cost, the Merchant must process the Transaction as one of the following:
- A Card-present Transaction. For CVM requirements, see Rule 3.4.
- A fully authenticated SecureCode or Identity Check e-commerce Transaction
American Express Merchant Operating Guide (US)
12.14.2.4 Capital Damages
If a Cardmember voluntarily opts to use the Card to pay for property damage to a rented vehicle (Capital Damages), you may accept the Card, provided you have complied with all of the
following conditions for payments of such items:
If a Cardmember voluntarily opts to use the Card to pay for property damage to a rented vehicle (Capital Damages), you may accept the Card, provided you have complied with all of the
following conditions for payments of such items:
- The Card was used for the vehicle rental at the time the vehicle was checked out.
- You must provide in writing, to the Cardmember, an itemized list and description of specific damages which have occurred.
- Prior to submitting a Charge, you must obtain the Cardmember's agreement in writing* to:
- Accept responsibility for the Capital Damages, and
- Select American Express as the payment method for the Capital Damages, and
- Accept the total estimated amount for which the Cardmember may be responsible, and that the final billed amount can be up to 15% more than the estimated amount. No amounts in excess of 115% of the disclosed amount shall be charged to the Cardmember's Card, without the express prior written consent of the Cardmember
Hertz Germany car rental 'damages' scam
Apr 1, 2018, 6:04 am
#136
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,638
This fraud, it may not be systematic but it happens and fraud is what it is, has been going on for several years. You just can't rent in Germany without additional no excess insurance. I've seen them back off claiming damages for tiny (read 2mm!) bumper scratches as soon as I mention the word insurance. I now also avoid renting a car in Germany and Austria when I have a choice.
Are you saying rental agency doesn’t allow you to rent unless you buy damage coverage or are you saying rental agency don’t offer a €0 excess damage coverage option? Or neither?
As for making a claim for damage, are you saying they drop their claim only after you remind them damage coverage was purchased on rental agreement or are you saying they drop the claim after you mention you have your own coverage? Or neither?
Sep 8, 2018, 12:10 pm
#137
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Miami, FL
Programs: UA 1MM, AA Plat, Marriott LT Titanium, Hyatt Glob, IHG ♢ Amb, Hilton ♢, Hertz Pres
Posts: 6,017
We rented a car at Hertz Munich in June 2014 and when we picked up the car, there was no attendant to assist. There was a scratch on the car, which was not indicated on the paperwork. We called the Hertz office, and they said we must just indicate it on the paper and show them when we return the car. We did this, and also took pictures of the damage and the car in the position it was parked before we took possession. When we returned, we showed the attendant the pictures and gave the completed paperwork to him. He said it is OK. Then Hertz deducted just under £500 for damages from our credit card, unauthorised and with no communication of invoice. We called the customer services and the logged an investigation, but refused to give us any feedback on further enquiry. They refuse to respond to our complaints and ignore any communication. What do I do to get the matter resolved??
At the risk of repeating myself.........
If you agree the pre-existing damage on Hertz' form which is part of the RA paperwork, then you should have no arguments. having photographic evidence is certainly helpful in the case of disputes, but the Damage Report which you should be asked to sign, and a copy of which is lodged with Hertz and a copy of which you keep when you leave the facility is the key here. If there is damage that is evident on the car that was not reported on that, then you will be held accountable......... I know it is tedious to check, and dark coloured cars in dimly lit car parks can be difficult to check it out, but if you don't then you run the risk of the stories reported here.
If you agree the pre-existing damage on Hertz' form which is part of the RA paperwork, then you should have no arguments. having photographic evidence is certainly helpful in the case of disputes, but the Damage Report which you should be asked to sign, and a copy of which is lodged with Hertz and a copy of which you keep when you leave the facility is the key here. If there is damage that is evident on the car that was not reported on that, then you will be held accountable......... I know it is tedious to check, and dark coloured cars in dimly lit car parks can be difficult to check it out, but if you don't then you run the risk of the stories reported here.
Interestingly, I just rented from Hertz Malta today. The attendant told me their boss pays attendants 2% of all damage they find. So he said to be very diligent when writing out the damage report - as the 2% makes the people very aggressive at return to find more damage.
I did use my United Explorer Card to pay for the rental - so I assume if I can't get Hertz to rescind then I can just file a claim with Chase and have them refund me. But this is just an assumption and a lot of time is going to be required to get monies back. Shame on Hertz!!!
Jan 23, 2020, 6:06 pm
#138
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,638
Since last post in April 2018, I had 8 rentals with Hertz Germany.
Had a flat on one rental where I had to use the flat tire filler. They didn’t charge me for the “damaged” tire.
Had a flat on one rental where I had to use the flat tire filler. They didn’t charge me for the “damaged” tire.
Jan 24, 2020, 2:05 am
#139
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Gloucestershire
Programs: BA Gold (ex-GGL, maybe future Silver), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 6,201
As a frequent renter at MUC, I've only ever had one slight issue where I missed some pre-existing damage (spotted a scratch the next morning after parking up overnight - but having only driven out of the airport and parked up on the street with nothing alongside me, I knew I couldn't have caused it).
Took it back and they agreed it was old.
Other than that I've, touch wood, not had any concerns. (Although I do have credit card insurance that reduces my deductible to €200).
Took it back and they agreed it was old.
Other than that I've, touch wood, not had any concerns. (Although I do have credit card insurance that reduces my deductible to €200).
Jul 2, 2020, 7:48 pm
#140
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: Hertz PC, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 49
I always walk slowly around the car at the beginning of the car rental and make a video on my iPhone of the entire car. That way, even if I don't notice something at the beginning, I have a high percentage chance of recording it on the video to prove later that the damage was already there at the start of the rental.
I tried to imagine how I would have handled the situation if upon returning the car rental, they tried to claim that I am responsible for the damage that was already there.
This strategy applies to any car rental company, not just Hertz. They all have similar language in their terms and conditions for arbitration.
1) I would not accept the statement of the one employee that I caused the minor damage. I would probably demand to see the manager of the Hertz location.
2) If the manager was insisting on pinning the very minor damage on me, I would review my video. If I were sure I was correct, I would ask for them to contact the police to take a report. I would inform the auto rental manager that it is my intent to file an insurance fraud claim with the police against the car rental manager, employees and the company.
3) If they still have not yet dropped their ridiculous effort to pin the damage on me, I would proceed to wait for the police and get a criminal report on file and info on how to obtain a copy of the report.
4) Once I get home, I would likely file for arbitration against the rental car company. Since I used the Hertz.com website to make the reservation, Hertz arbitration with the American Arbitration Assoc applies. Under the Hertz arbitration agreement, they agree to pay all arbitration fees, which are about $4,900 just to start the process. How do I know this? I have filed for arbitration for my brother-in-law when they charged him $800+ for car rental insurance that he did not request. They provided a full refund, including the entire original rental plus insurance (free 3 week car rental) in order to avoid having to pay the arbitration fees of $4,500. It was resolved with the Hertz legal department in Estero Florida.
5) The end result would be an entirely free car rental, all rental fees refunded to me, as a penalty for the damage scam they tried to commit upon return of the car.
That is how I would probably handle it.
And I would win because it is simply not worth it for the auto rental company to pay the arbitration fees of $4,900.
I tried to imagine how I would have handled the situation if upon returning the car rental, they tried to claim that I am responsible for the damage that was already there.
This strategy applies to any car rental company, not just Hertz. They all have similar language in their terms and conditions for arbitration.
1) I would not accept the statement of the one employee that I caused the minor damage. I would probably demand to see the manager of the Hertz location.
2) If the manager was insisting on pinning the very minor damage on me, I would review my video. If I were sure I was correct, I would ask for them to contact the police to take a report. I would inform the auto rental manager that it is my intent to file an insurance fraud claim with the police against the car rental manager, employees and the company.
3) If they still have not yet dropped their ridiculous effort to pin the damage on me, I would proceed to wait for the police and get a criminal report on file and info on how to obtain a copy of the report.
4) Once I get home, I would likely file for arbitration against the rental car company. Since I used the Hertz.com website to make the reservation, Hertz arbitration with the American Arbitration Assoc applies. Under the Hertz arbitration agreement, they agree to pay all arbitration fees, which are about $4,900 just to start the process. How do I know this? I have filed for arbitration for my brother-in-law when they charged him $800+ for car rental insurance that he did not request. They provided a full refund, including the entire original rental plus insurance (free 3 week car rental) in order to avoid having to pay the arbitration fees of $4,500. It was resolved with the Hertz legal department in Estero Florida.
5) The end result would be an entirely free car rental, all rental fees refunded to me, as a penalty for the damage scam they tried to commit upon return of the car.
That is how I would probably handle it.
And I would win because it is simply not worth it for the auto rental company to pay the arbitration fees of $4,900.
Last edited by RocketGoBoom; Jul 2, 2020 at 9:47 pm
Jul 2, 2020, 9:52 pm
#141
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London
Posts: 1,546
"Since I used the Hertz.com website to make the reservation, Hertz arbitration with the American Arbitration Assoc applies. "
I'm not a lawyer, but are you sure? The paperwork you would sign when picking up the car in Germany would say that German law applies to the contract.
I'm not a lawyer, but are you sure? The paperwork you would sign when picking up the car in Germany would say that German law applies to the contract.
Jul 2, 2020, 9:57 pm
#142
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: Hertz PC, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 49
"Since I used the Hertz.com website to make the reservation, Hertz arbitration with the American Arbitration Assoc applies. "
I'm not a lawyer, but are you sure? The paperwork you would sign when picking up the car in Germany would say that German law applies to the contract.
I'm not a lawyer, but are you sure? The paperwork you would sign when picking up the car in Germany would say that German law applies to the contract.
I am starting a new topic specifically on this issue and will post it soon here in this forum.
I have actually done this process. Hertz settled with us within 3 weeks of receiving the paperwork.
Full refund, including the legitimate 3 week car rental.
I demanded everything refunded and made it a 3 week free car rental as a penalty for their shady business practices.
We can only hope that the legal department then raises the issue with business managers and try to minimize their legal risk in the future.
Hertz and other companies do not put up a fight as long as the dispute is about less than $4,900.
Because it would cost them $4,900 in fees to even have an argument with you.
Jul 3, 2020, 4:05 pm
#143
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Programs: HertzPresCircle, Virgin Atlantic Gold,Hil-Diam, Europcar Elite Vip, Emirates Gold, MarriottTitanium.
Posts: 419
I feel good about Hertz USA and have always been treated well, but Hertz in Frankfurt Airport, Germany left me with a bad feeling.
Upon return of the car (that had 35,000 KM on it) a tiny dent in the bumper was pointed out as "damage." Even if I had seen this upon car-pickup I would not have had it recorded because of its tiny size.
A week later I received a bill for 1,447 Euros, along with a detailed list of items to be repaired.
Not only did the costs seem excessive, they even charged me for new emblems which seems rather dubious.
I can't help but wonder if any other unnecessary parts were listed.
Have a look at the pictures and you be the judge.
(the damage is directly below the 91 in the license plate)
Hertz is supposed to have a program where a "damage matrix" can be referenced at the rental location to quickly settle minor damage.
The rental agreement specifies this. However, my email request for this was ignored.
My lessons: 1. don't assume Hertz International locations operate the same way as in the USA, 2. have the rental agent mark every blemish on the form before leaving with the car and don't be shy to be a very picky person and point out everything, no matter how tiny because they surely will be picky at return-time, and 3. if you do get accused of minor damage upon return, insist that they show you the "damage matrix" and damage criteria form and try to settle it on the spot rather than wait to receive a bill. If they won't do this, be sure to write on the damage report that they refused.
Upon return of the car (that had 35,000 KM on it) a tiny dent in the bumper was pointed out as "damage." Even if I had seen this upon car-pickup I would not have had it recorded because of its tiny size.
A week later I received a bill for 1,447 Euros, along with a detailed list of items to be repaired.
Not only did the costs seem excessive, they even charged me for new emblems which seems rather dubious.
I can't help but wonder if any other unnecessary parts were listed.
Have a look at the pictures and you be the judge.
(the damage is directly below the 91 in the license plate)
Hertz is supposed to have a program where a "damage matrix" can be referenced at the rental location to quickly settle minor damage.
The rental agreement specifies this. However, my email request for this was ignored.
My lessons: 1. don't assume Hertz International locations operate the same way as in the USA, 2. have the rental agent mark every blemish on the form before leaving with the car and don't be shy to be a very picky person and point out everything, no matter how tiny because they surely will be picky at return-time, and 3. if you do get accused of minor damage upon return, insist that they show you the "damage matrix" and damage criteria form and try to settle it on the spot rather than wait to receive a bill. If they won't do this, be sure to write on the damage report that they refused.
Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; Sep 4, 2020 at 5:51 pm Reason: removed images from quote
Sep 3, 2020, 4:20 pm
#144
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YVR
Programs: AC MM
Posts: 1,478
I always take the zero deductible insruance option from the rental car company just so that I don't have to worry about any issues throughout my rental.
It does cost more but it also gives me a peace of mind throughout my travels.
It does cost more but it also gives me a peace of mind throughout my travels.
Sep 3, 2020, 4:25 pm
#145
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: Hertz PC, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 49
Do realize that is about 10x more than the actual cost of auto insurance.
In reality, your secondary coverage thru your credit card is more than enough coverage for anyone.
Having American Express primary coverage costs something like $20 to $25 for the ENTIRE rental (not per day) and covers everything for up to a 42 day rental.
https://feeservices.americanexpress....verage/home.do
Sep 3, 2020, 5:47 pm
#146
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YVR
Programs: AC MM
Posts: 1,478
The insurance option that costs $30 per day? Buying auto rental insurance from the rental company is just about the worst deal imaginable.
Do realize that is about 10x more than the actual cost of auto insurance.
In reality, your secondary coverage thru your credit card is more than enough coverage for anyone.
Having American Express primary coverage costs something like $20 to $25 for the ENTIRE rental (not per day) and covers everything for up to a 42 day rental.
https://feeservices.americanexpress....verage/home.do
Do realize that is about 10x more than the actual cost of auto insurance.
In reality, your secondary coverage thru your credit card is more than enough coverage for anyone.
Having American Express primary coverage costs something like $20 to $25 for the ENTIRE rental (not per day) and covers everything for up to a 42 day rental.
https://feeservices.americanexpress....verage/home.do
Whenever I need a rental for a longer time priod, for example 2 weeks or more, I usually book with AutoEurope where I can get the zero deductable rate from Hertz included for about $ 200 - $ 250 more.
I don't mind that this kind of rental doesn't count towards status with Hertz which I used to have a few years ago and found it wasn't worth it.
I am currently planning to book a car from HERTZ Dusseldorf Airport for 17 days in October where the basic rate for a midsize wagon is U$ 606 and the No deductible with extended cover is priced $ 796. I gladly pay the extra $ 190 and don't have to worry about any damages, including glass, wheels etc.
Sep 5, 2020, 3:00 pm
#147
Moderator, Hertz; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRK
Programs: UA 1MM, BA GGL, Hyatt Glob, Hilton Diamond and others
Posts: 12,690
Notice:
Yesterday this thread went off-topic quickly and several points of the FlyerTalk Rules were violated.
I cleaned up this thread and deleted the posts that were off-topic and those posts that violated FlyerTalk Rules.
I'll re-open this thread up now, but as a warning that offensive language and personal attacks are not allowed on FlyerTalk
Members can review the FlyerTalk Rules here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules...ettingpersonal
https://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#offensive
Please also stay on-topic.
Jason8612 Hertz Mod
Yesterday this thread went off-topic quickly and several points of the FlyerTalk Rules were violated.
I cleaned up this thread and deleted the posts that were off-topic and those posts that violated FlyerTalk Rules.
I'll re-open this thread up now, but as a warning that offensive language and personal attacks are not allowed on FlyerTalk
Members can review the FlyerTalk Rules here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules...ettingpersonal
https://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#offensive
Please also stay on-topic.
Jason8612 Hertz Mod
Sep 5, 2020, 6:07 pm
#148
Join Date: May 2017
Programs: National EE, Hertz PC
Posts: 231
If I did this I would make sure to wreck the car before returning it 😂
Sep 5, 2020, 8:45 pm
#149
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,638
I know it's more expensive but the problem I have with the insurance I get for example with my AMEX is that you are still charged first for any expenses up front and when traveling, this is really not something I want to have to deal with.
Whenever I need a rental for a longer time priod, for example 2 weeks or more, I usually book with AutoEurope where I can get the zero deductable rate from Hertz included for about $ 200 - $ 250 more.
I don't mind that this kind of rental doesn't count towards status with Hertz which I used to have a few years ago and found it wasn't worth it.
I am currently planning to book a car from HERTZ Dusseldorf Airport for 17 days in October where the basic rate for a midsize wagon is U$ 606 and the No deductible with extended cover is priced $ 796. I gladly pay the extra $ 190 and don't have to worry about any damages, including glass, wheels etc.
Whenever I need a rental for a longer time priod, for example 2 weeks or more, I usually book with AutoEurope where I can get the zero deductable rate from Hertz included for about $ 200 - $ 250 more.
I don't mind that this kind of rental doesn't count towards status with Hertz which I used to have a few years ago and found it wasn't worth it.
I am currently planning to book a car from HERTZ Dusseldorf Airport for 17 days in October where the basic rate for a midsize wagon is U$ 606 and the No deductible with extended cover is priced $ 796. I gladly pay the extra $ 190 and don't have to worry about any damages, including glass, wheels etc.
Rental agency is not allowed to charge credit card for damages/theft without additional authorization from renter. Rental agency must produce a formal damage claim. Renter can then file insurance claim or, if no insurance, pay rental agency for damages.
If an agency charge for damages/theft on the original rental credit card without subsequent authorization, that charge is not going to survive a chargeback.
Sep 5, 2020, 9:24 pm
#150
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YVR
Programs: AC MM
Posts: 1,478
I just added a wiki to this thread with AMEX/MasterCard/Visa rules concerning damages/theft.
Rental agency is not allowed to charge credit card for damages/theft without additional authorization from renter. Rental agency must produce a formal damage claim. Renter can then file insurance claim or, if no insurance, pay rental agency for damages.
If an agency charge for damages/theft on the original rental credit card without subsequent authorization, that charge is not going to survive a chargeback.
Rental agency is not allowed to charge credit card for damages/theft without additional authorization from renter. Rental agency must produce a formal damage claim. Renter can then file insurance claim or, if no insurance, pay rental agency for damages.
If an agency charge for damages/theft on the original rental credit card without subsequent authorization, that charge is not going to survive a chargeback.
I might revisit the option and use my AMEX to cover my rental car insurance.
