Russia a big NO GO (imo)
Apr 6, 2017, 8:46 pm
#46
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Wasn't intended to disagree with you. Just amplifying what you were saying I think.
Apr 16, 2017, 12:01 pm
#47
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As an Irish/Brit man married to a Russian man and living in Moscow, I can safely say that being LGBT in Russia isn't necessarily all that bad. Granted, just like London isn't the UK, Moscow (and St P) equally isn't Russia.
Also, it goes without saying that Moscow and St P are the havens of the country and anywhere else is more difficult, but not impossible as such. As a country of initially untrusting anyone and hiding themselves deep in the closet in case anyone finds out and launches an attack on them is an issue, but I've known plenty of Russians to live in different parts of the country and still be OK with it. On the other side of the coin, I know others who have been attacked and claimed asylum abroad.
It's always baffling when gays dream of going to places like Dubai or SE Asia for holidays where being gay is illegal (SE Asia, of course, depending where you go...), yet the minute anyone mentions Russia it's a completely different ball game.
As a teacher, I've actually brought the Chechnya topic up with several students, and pretty much all agreed that if Russians say this is monstrous, then it must really be bad. And also shows that Russians aren't as bad as people make them out to be.
It just so happens that out of the 100 or so people I know personally in Moscow, about 80% are men, and of them, about 2% are straight. And all are fine with being in Russia in a general sense, but of course, they'd like to see it become more progressive.
So anyone who says they will boycott the country based purely on LGBT grounds, in my opinion, is a bit idiotic. I've never had a problem in Moscow..in fact, we went on our honeymoon to New York just a few months ago - within 6 hours of arriving, I was faced with a torrent of verbal abuse from a guy on Times Square...for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and been assaulted in my hometown in the UK. Go figure, eh?
Also, it goes without saying that Moscow and St P are the havens of the country and anywhere else is more difficult, but not impossible as such. As a country of initially untrusting anyone and hiding themselves deep in the closet in case anyone finds out and launches an attack on them is an issue, but I've known plenty of Russians to live in different parts of the country and still be OK with it. On the other side of the coin, I know others who have been attacked and claimed asylum abroad.
It's always baffling when gays dream of going to places like Dubai or SE Asia for holidays where being gay is illegal (SE Asia, of course, depending where you go...), yet the minute anyone mentions Russia it's a completely different ball game.
As a teacher, I've actually brought the Chechnya topic up with several students, and pretty much all agreed that if Russians say this is monstrous, then it must really be bad. And also shows that Russians aren't as bad as people make them out to be.
It just so happens that out of the 100 or so people I know personally in Moscow, about 80% are men, and of them, about 2% are straight. And all are fine with being in Russia in a general sense, but of course, they'd like to see it become more progressive.
So anyone who says they will boycott the country based purely on LGBT grounds, in my opinion, is a bit idiotic. I've never had a problem in Moscow..in fact, we went on our honeymoon to New York just a few months ago - within 6 hours of arriving, I was faced with a torrent of verbal abuse from a guy on Times Square...for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and been assaulted in my hometown in the UK. Go figure, eh?
Apr 16, 2017, 1:44 pm
#48
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As an Irish/Brit man married to a Russian man and living in Moscow, I can safely say that being LGBT in Russia isn't necessarily all that bad. Granted, just like London isn't the UK, Moscow (and St P) equally isn't Russia.
Also, it goes without saying that Moscow and St P are the havens of the country and anywhere else is more difficult, but not impossible as such. As a country of initially untrusting anyone and hiding themselves deep in the closet in case anyone finds out and launches an attack on them is an issue, but I've known plenty of Russians to live in different parts of the country and still be OK with it. On the other side of the coin, I know others who have been attacked and claimed asylum abroad.
It's always baffling when gays dream of going to places like Dubai or SE Asia for holidays where being gay is illegal (SE Asia, of course, depending where you go...), yet the minute anyone mentions Russia it's a completely different ball game.
As a teacher, I've actually brought the Chechnya topic up with several students, and pretty much all agreed that if Russians say this is monstrous, then it must really be bad. And also shows that Russians aren't as bad as people make them out to be.
It just so happens that out of the 100 or so people I know personally in Moscow, about 80% are men, and of them, about 2% are straight. And all are fine with being in Russia in a general sense, but of course, they'd like to see it become more progressive.
So anyone who says they will boycott the country based purely on LGBT grounds, in my opinion, is a bit idiotic. I've never had a problem in Moscow..in fact, we went on our honeymoon to New York just a few months ago - within 6 hours of arriving, I was faced with a torrent of verbal abuse from a guy on Times Square...for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and been assaulted in my hometown in the UK. Go figure, eh?
Also, it goes without saying that Moscow and St P are the havens of the country and anywhere else is more difficult, but not impossible as such. As a country of initially untrusting anyone and hiding themselves deep in the closet in case anyone finds out and launches an attack on them is an issue, but I've known plenty of Russians to live in different parts of the country and still be OK with it. On the other side of the coin, I know others who have been attacked and claimed asylum abroad.
It's always baffling when gays dream of going to places like Dubai or SE Asia for holidays where being gay is illegal (SE Asia, of course, depending where you go...), yet the minute anyone mentions Russia it's a completely different ball game.
As a teacher, I've actually brought the Chechnya topic up with several students, and pretty much all agreed that if Russians say this is monstrous, then it must really be bad. And also shows that Russians aren't as bad as people make them out to be.
It just so happens that out of the 100 or so people I know personally in Moscow, about 80% are men, and of them, about 2% are straight. And all are fine with being in Russia in a general sense, but of course, they'd like to see it become more progressive.
So anyone who says they will boycott the country based purely on LGBT grounds, in my opinion, is a bit idiotic. I've never had a problem in Moscow..in fact, we went on our honeymoon to New York just a few months ago - within 6 hours of arriving, I was faced with a torrent of verbal abuse from a guy on Times Square...for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and been assaulted in my hometown in the UK. Go figure, eh?
I also think you're missing the entire point. I agree *I* would likely be safe in Moscow or St. Petersburg, as I would be in Abu Dhabi or Kuala Lumpur. The issue is not whether I as a relatively wealthy Americantraveler will be safe, or whether there are random acts of anti-gay violence. It's whether I want to vote with my pocketbook and express support for a repressive regime. I may be unusual in that I try hard not to support such regimes even if the people they are repressing aren't gay.
The whole false equivalencies between being yelled at in NY by some random dude and the systematic state-sanctioned suppression of speech and openness about sexual orientation (or criticizing the government) seems like a joke. Oh yeah, and the whole concentration camp thing in Chechnya and the Russian government response seems a bit different.
Apr 16, 2017, 2:32 pm
#49
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It's whether I want to vote with my pocketbook and express support for a repressive regime.
The whole false equivalencies between being yelled at in NY by some random dude and the systematic state-sanctioned suppression of speech and openness about sexual orientation (or criticizing the government) seems like a joke.
Oh yeah, and the whole concentration camp thing in Chechnya and the Russian government response seems a bit different.
Apr 16, 2017, 7:20 pm
#50
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You can visit a country and not support regimes...ok, it can be argued that by simply visiting a country would be regarded as support, but still...
The point I was making there is that while you can't compare state suppression of a minority group to random abuse in the west which prosecutes against it, you can argue that even though the Western world does have laws protecting minority groups of all sorts etc, even such protections don't render those minorities in oppressed countries completely safe. All too often I hear Russians romanticising places like London etc where they believe no wrong can ever happen, and will refuse to believe bad can happen out of their country.
The point there is that the media portrays Russia as massively homophobic. Yes, they have a tendency to be so, but not as much as the media says they are. I've known Russians living abroad for whatever reason face discrimination (minority or not) based purely on their motherland. Even ones who blend in so well that the only way to know who they really are is if you asked them directly or saw some identification.
The point I was making there is that while you can't compare state suppression of a minority group to random abuse in the west which prosecutes against it, you can argue that even though the Western world does have laws protecting minority groups of all sorts etc, even such protections don't render those minorities in oppressed countries completely safe. All too often I hear Russians romanticising places like London etc where they believe no wrong can ever happen, and will refuse to believe bad can happen out of their country.
The point there is that the media portrays Russia as massively homophobic. Yes, they have a tendency to be so, but not as much as the media says they are. I've known Russians living abroad for whatever reason face discrimination (minority or not) based purely on their motherland. Even ones who blend in so well that the only way to know who they really are is if you asked them directly or saw some identification.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone's point in this thread was that Russian people are homophobic. But if it makes you feel better about your support for the Russian state, go ahead.
Apr 17, 2017, 5:48 am
#51
Join Date: Apr 2017
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What I'm trying to say is that how a country is represented in the media doesn't reflect the reality necessarily, and people should be more aware of this before they choose to 'boycott' a country for whatever reason. Generally speaking, LGBT stuff aside, Russia is actually quite safe.
I also believe that people's attitudes can come down to knowing the culture of a place and how somewhere can easily be misconceived. For example, the lack of smiling known in Russia boils down to 1) being a sign of professionalism in businesses e.g. shops and 2) a sign of sincerity, as those who smiles seemingly randomly looks strange (A Russian proverb says 'He who smiles without reason is a fool'), which of course may look weird to Westerners, but no doubt Russians find it weird that Brits say 'sorry' in every other sentence, or how Americans use 'sir' or 'miss' to basically anyone they don't know.
Apr 17, 2017, 1:59 pm
#52
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Somewhat condescending of you...I'm not even supporting Russia, not in the slightest. If anything, I'd be supporting the opposition of the current government.
What I'm trying to say is that how a country is represented in the media doesn't reflect the reality necessarily, and people should be more aware of this before they choose to 'boycott' a country for whatever reason. Generally speaking, LGBT stuff aside, Russia is actually quite safe.
I also believe that people's attitudes can come down to knowing the culture of a place and how somewhere can easily be misconceived. For example, the lack of smiling known in Russia boils down to 1) being a sign of professionalism in businesses e.g. shops and 2) a sign of sincerity, as those who smiles seemingly randomly looks strange (A Russian proverb says 'He who smiles without reason is a fool'), which of course may look weird to Westerners, but no doubt Russians find it weird that Brits say 'sorry' in every other sentence, or how Americans use 'sir' or 'miss' to basically anyone they don't know.
What I'm trying to say is that how a country is represented in the media doesn't reflect the reality necessarily, and people should be more aware of this before they choose to 'boycott' a country for whatever reason. Generally speaking, LGBT stuff aside, Russia is actually quite safe.
I also believe that people's attitudes can come down to knowing the culture of a place and how somewhere can easily be misconceived. For example, the lack of smiling known in Russia boils down to 1) being a sign of professionalism in businesses e.g. shops and 2) a sign of sincerity, as those who smiles seemingly randomly looks strange (A Russian proverb says 'He who smiles without reason is a fool'), which of course may look weird to Westerners, but no doubt Russians find it weird that Brits say 'sorry' in every other sentence, or how Americans use 'sir' or 'miss' to basically anyone they don't know.
Yet you are STILL talking about whether people smile. No one is boycotting Russia because people don't say "sir" or "miss"; it's a strawman to bring up cultural norms like that. This thread has consistently been about government policies. I'm not sure where your "it's not like the media portrays it, people are nice to me" fits in.
No one is arguing with you that people in Russia can be nice and bad things can happen in London or New York. The argument is that that's a non sequitur to the discussion here, and a bit offensive to equate the Russian government's policies to people not smiling on the street.